From jelle at defekt.nl Wed Feb 1 10:40:47 2006 From: jelle at defekt.nl (Jelle Herold) Date: Wed Feb 1 10:42:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] portmidi app i/o ports In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49D2D39E-6121-427D-9818-FC0C3AA385FE@defekt.nl> Carlo, On 30-jan-2006, at 18:57, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > I would like to know whether it is possible for portmidi based > applications to have their own sequencer i/o ports to connect to. Although not an answer to your question, but if you use C++ you could try RtMidi[1], I found it a bit nicer than portmidi and it does what you request. [1] http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/ hope this helps cheers, Jelle From sbenno at gardena.net Wed Feb 1 11:27:59 2006 From: sbenno at gardena.net (Benno Senoner) Date: Wed Feb 1 11:21:55 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] LAD site, linuxdj.com needs a new home In-Reply-To: <1138753164.5129.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <43DDEA80.40907@gardena.net> <87k6chmf4u.fsf@esben-stien.name> <1138661049.18906.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138753164.5129.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43E0E18F.8040006@gardena.net> I mailed Paul the link to fetch the whole LAD web tree and files, about 5.7GB ( the content that was on www.linuxdj.com/audio ) next step should be deciding wheter to put the content on a nicer domain. ( and having linuxdj.com/audio redirect to that domain/site so that search engine and website links get redirected to the correct place). I'll wait for Paul's reply how to proceed (redirect linuxdj.com etc). cheers, Benno Paul Davis wrote: >On Mon, 2006-01-30 at 17:44 -0500, Paul Davis wrote: > > >>On Tue, 2006-01-31 at 01:10 +0100, Esben Stien wrote: >> >> >>>Benno Senoner writes: >>> >>> >>> >>>>consumes so much bandwidth >>>> >>>> >>>Why don't we put these videos on archive.org?. >>> >>> >>I currently have 1870GB/month bandwidth, and it climbs by 16GB/week >>right now. Last month, I used 0.1% of my bandwidth. Its not an issue. >> >> > >lets get this transfer started ... > > > > From nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de Wed Feb 1 14:43:22 2006 From: nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de (Joern Nettingsmeier) Date: Wed Feb 1 14:43:33 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] LAD site, linuxdj.com needs a new home In-Reply-To: <43E0E18F.8040006@gardena.net> References: <43DDEA80.40907@gardena.net> <87k6chmf4u.fsf@esben-stien.name> <1138661049.18906.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138753164.5129.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43E0E18F.8040006@gardena.net> Message-ID: <43E10F5A.3080608@folkwang-hochschule.de> finally chiming in... glad there's so many volunteers for site hosting. it's time that the site moves on, it's been without maintenance for over a year now. please make sure that the redirect from http://linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ is maintained, since hundreds of sites worldwide use that url. also, the linuxaudiodev.org domain has expired a while ago, it would be nice if someone were to reclaim it and point it to the new location as well. (benno, i've been trying to contact you about this for months, but you're a little hard to reach these days.) if whoever is going to re-do the site is interested in real-time list stats (a crude version of which you can see on the old subscribe.php page, unfortunately very out of date since i've been locked out of the machine for the better part of a year), get in touch with me and we'll set something up. best, j?rn Benno Senoner wrote: > I mailed Paul the link to fetch the whole LAD web tree and files, about > 5.7GB ( the content that was on www.linuxdj.com/audio ) > next step should be deciding wheter to put the content on a nicer > domain. ( and having linuxdj.com/audio redirect to that domain/site > so that search engine and website links get redirected to the correct > place). > > I'll wait for Paul's reply how to proceed (redirect linuxdj.com etc). > > cheers, > Benno > > > Paul Davis wrote: > >> On Mon, 2006-01-30 at 17:44 -0500, Paul Davis wrote: >> >> >>> On Tue, 2006-01-31 at 01:10 +0100, Esben Stien wrote: >>> >>>> Benno Senoner writes: >>>> >>>> >>>>> consumes so much bandwidth >>>>> >>>> Why don't we put these videos on archive.org?. >>>> >>> I currently have 1870GB/month bandwidth, and it climbs by 16GB/week >>> right now. Last month, I used 0.1% of my bandwidth. Its not an issue. >>> >> >> lets get this transfer started ... >> >> >> >> > > -- j?rn nettingsmeier home://germany/45128 essen/lortzingstr. 11/ http://spunk.dnsalias.org phone://+49/201/491621 if you are a free (as in "free speech") software developer and you happen to be travelling near my home, drop me a line and come round for a free (as in "free beer") beer. :-D From pw_lists at slinkp.com Wed Feb 1 15:36:16 2006 From: pw_lists at slinkp.com (Paul Winkler) Date: Wed Feb 1 15:36:26 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] LAD site, linuxdj.com needs a new home In-Reply-To: <43E10F5A.3080608@folkwang-hochschule.de> References: <43DDEA80.40907@gardena.net> <87k6chmf4u.fsf@esben-stien.name> <1138661049.18906.91.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1138753164.5129.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <43E0E18F.8040006@gardena.net> <43E10F5A.3080608@folkwang-hochschule.de> Message-ID: <20060201203616.GB9338@slinkp.com> On Wed, Feb 01, 2006 at 08:43:22PM +0100, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote: > also, the linuxaudiodev.org domain has expired a while ago, it would be > nice if someone were to reclaim it and point it to the new location as > well. (benno, i've been trying to contact you about this for months, but > you're a little hard to reach these days.) It's not showing up as available. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com From jamesmichaelmcdermott at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 07:46:00 2006 From: jamesmichaelmcdermott at gmail.com (James McDermott) Date: Thu Feb 2 07:46:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: open standards for file formats In-Reply-To: <20060130155927.38751.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <20060130140303.248B5411ACF@music.columbia.edu> <20060130155927.38751.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There was some interesting discussion on this issue on the libsndfile mailing list around July/August 2004. From ix at replic.net Thu Feb 2 08:00:03 2006 From: ix at replic.net (cdr) Date: Thu Feb 2 08:00:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: open standards for file formats In-Reply-To: References: <20060130140303.248B5411ACF@music.columbia.edu> <20060130155927.38751.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20060202130003.GH21697@replic.net> On Thu Feb 02, 2006 at 12:46:00PM +0000, James McDermott wrote: > There was some interesting discussion on this issue on the libsndfile > mailing list around July/August 2004. thanks for the tip... i dont suppose youd know if they have archives somewhere? :) From x at branwelt.de Thu Feb 2 09:58:16 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Thu Feb 2 09:57:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] rosegarden dssi problem In-Reply-To: <200601271138.35558.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> References: <847949093-1137798358-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-13016-@engine03.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> <200601241246.18493.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43D628E6.6070403@branwelt.de> <200601271138.35558.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> Message-ID: <43E21E08.1000100@branwelt.de> Chris Cannam wrote: >On Tuesday 24 Jan 2006 13:17, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: > > >>The problem occures on all files, that have dssi-plugins assigned. >>Here is a simple test file with a track "bass" that has the "Less >>trivial synth" applied. >>If I open and play it, there is no sound. >> >> > >I can't reproduce this at all. The example file works fine for me. That's >rather troubling. > >Did you build this from CVS yourself? Are you in a position to build it again >with some debug output enabled? If so, I'd like to see what is printed by >the sequencer process when the two lines > >#define DEBUG_DSSI 1 >#define DEBUG_DSSI_PROCESS 1 > >at the top of sound/DSSIPluginInstance.cpp are uncommented. > > >Chris > > > Did the output I've sent help somehow? Has anyone else reported a similar problem? If this is related to my system only, do you have any idea why/how this could be? Dssi is working on my system, also in rosegarden, only when loading a new file, the tracks with dssi-plugins are muted somehow... then I have to re-assign the plugins for each track for the sound to come back. Emanuel From jamesmichaelmcdermott at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 10:57:12 2006 From: jamesmichaelmcdermott at gmail.com (James McDermott) Date: Thu Feb 2 10:57:22 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: open standards for file formats In-Reply-To: <20060202130003.GH21697@replic.net> References: <20060130140303.248B5411ACF@music.columbia.edu> <20060130155927.38751.qmail@web26801.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <20060202130003.GH21697@replic.net> Message-ID: > thanks for the tip... i dont suppose youd know if they have archives somewhere? :) Oh... I'd forgotten, that list (libsndfile) is not archived. I've put what I have here (I hope no-one objects), though I think it's missing some: http://www.skynet.ie/~jmmcd/software/sndfile_overview.txt From ivarga at csounds.com Thu Feb 2 13:03:24 2006 From: ivarga at csounds.com (Istvan Varga) Date: Thu Feb 2 13:05:03 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ANN: Csound 5.00 Release Message-ID: <200602021903.24877.ivarga@csounds.com> After what has seemed a very long time (because it was...) we are releasing csound5.00 The binary, manuals and source files are on http://sourceforge.net/projects/csound and look for the csound5 files. The opportunity has been taken to tidy up the assembly of csound4.23 and earlier files and we are leaving the 4.23 files for a short while. Main message -- everyone should change to csound5. More robust, faster, more facilities, more fun, more music. ==John ffitch Release Notes for Csound 5.00 ----------------------------- The developers are very pleased to be releasing Csound5, for Linux (32 and 64 bit), Mac OSX and Windows, together with an uptodate manual. The system can be downloaded from http://sourceforge.net/projects/csound More details and further information can be found in the csound-devel mailing list at sourceforge and the main user mailing list at csound@lists.bath.ac.uk The changes from version 4.23 are extensive. The internal structure of the code has been radically changed, but the language remains compatible with Csound4, and all old orchestra/scores should run unchanged. The main visible change is that we are using a plugin style of system. Many of the opcodes are now loaded at start-up. This opens the way for private opcode libraries, and opcodes released under other licences than LGPL. The other major change is a move to the use of external libraries where possible. All the internal code for sound files, realtime audio etc has been replaced. We are now using libsndfile for audio file I/O, and one of ALSA, PortAudio, CoreAudio, MME or ASIO for realtime. MIDI may be handled by PortMIDI as well. The incorporation of Open Sound Control facilities uses the liblo library. A number of opcodes from csoundAV and csoundVST are now part of the main system. Another major change is that Csound5 is embeddable in other programming systems, using an API for information linkage. We are including Python, Java and other bindings for the API. Csound5 can also have multiple instances and is re-entrant. In addition there are a number of new opcodes, and of course bug fixes. We believe that csound5 is faster than csound4, and we encourage all users to move to it. NOTE: IT MAY BE NECESSARY ON SOME PLATFORMS TO HAVE EITHER ENVIRONMENT VARIABLES OPCODEDIR OR OPCODEDIR64 SET TO POINT TO DIRECTORY WHERE OPCODES LIVE. THE RELEASED FILES ARE BELIEVED TO BE SAFE AND CORRECT IN THIS RESPECT BUT BEWARE! New features: ------------ Access to multiple ALSA devices FLTK widgets reworked and synchronised with csoundAV User defined gens with names (rather than numbers) --expression-opt command option Information on time for each phase of csound if required Command line options to set ID tags in output soundfile (title/copyright etc) Jack available as output device --sched option now accepts a priority value -+rtaudio option to select output system Many new command line options Utilities to create csd files from orc/score Tcl/TK frontends (cstclsh and cswish) Can use looping structures in WAV files as well as AIFF Increased number of possible input and output audio file formats named channels #ifdef in orchestra removed limitation of only one track in MIDI input files MIDI output can also be written to a file (this is somewhat limited) MIDI-style extra time and release (xtratim, linsegr, etc.) is now also possible with score notes string variables (of type S) automatic conversion of some C-style escape sequences (\n, \r, ASCII code in octal \ooo format, etc) in string constants made internal indexes to orchestra variables 32 bit (was 16 bit in Csound 4), allowing for larger and more complex instruments replaced old PVOC format with PVOC-EX in all related opcodes SADIR SSDIR and INCDIR can now be a sdemicolon separated list of directories New Opcodes: ----------- maxk tab, tabw, and tb0()..tb15() vst4cs plugin opcodes pconvolve ftconv loris opcodes Python opcodes fluid opcodes chani and chano; chnset and chnget (string indexed) GEN43 a number of pvs (streaming phase vocoder) opcodes moogladder statevar fofilter syncgrain miditempo event_i reverbsc (Sean Costello's waveguide reverb) freeverb gentune GEN operation GEN51 GEN52 diskin2 turnoff2 a-rate int() and frac(), and round(), floor(), and ceil() << and >> operators STK (Perry Cook) instruments available from original code k() function Mixer opcodes OSCrecv, OSClisten, OSCsend loop opcodes printf, printf_i string hacking opcodes Bug Fixes: --------- Error in tablew fixed Minor fixed in dcblock Include files were confused by sections Improved reading of command line Fixes in dynamic fgen numbers gogobel and vibraphone amplitude fix Arguments to schewhen were wrong Better checking in bqrez minor checking in grain wguide2, wguide1 avoid very low frequencies wgpluck bug fix Some error messages corrected and typos fixed FLsetVal arguments were wrong outo missed out channel 6 fixed bugs and improved error reporting in ^+ and ^- code. kread, kdump and a number of other opcodes will take string arguments from the score bug fix in sinc window (gen20) Added iskip options to moogvcf, vco, bqrez, pareq, tbvcf and rezzy values rounded rather than truncated in deltap, comb, and delay removed spurious initial values from some MIDI opcodes Joystick was upside down lpshold and loopseg changed to agree with csoundAV marimba now allows zero probability of a multiple strike Added skipinit argument to diskin and soundin wave-terrain fixes for phase error accumulation (on long notes) new optional argument to delayr and all deltap opcodes, to allow delay taps to read from any of the nested delayr/delayw pairs, not just the last new optional argument to distort1 opcode (defaults to zero), to select amplitude scaling mode (0: default, compatible with original version; 1: relative to 0dBFS, same as mode 0 if 0dbfs is 32768; 2: unscaled) valpass fixed parameter overwriting Improved accuracy in some filters Improvements in bowedbar JPff -- 1 Feb 2006 Files on Sourceforge ==================== Sources: Csound5.00_src.tar.gz Csound5.00_src.zip Csound5.00_OS9_src.smi.bin Csound5.00_src_all.tar.gz (including Loris and STK code) Csound5.00_src_all.zip (including Loris and STK code) Manual Csound5.00_manual_chm.zip Csound5.00_manual_html.zip Csound5.00_manual_pdf.zip Csound5.00_manual_pdf_A4.zip Csound5.00_manual_single_file.zip OS9: Csound5.00_OS9.smi.bin OSX: Csound5.00_OSX10.3.tar.gz Csound5.00_OSX10.4.tar.gz Linux Csound5.00_i686.rpm Csound5.00_x86_64.rpm [Linux for non-root users Csound5.00_x86_64d.tar.gz Csound5.00_x86_64f.tar.gz ] Windows Csound5.00_win32.i686.zip Csound5.00_win32.exe (with installer) From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 00:19:20 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Fri Feb 3 00:19:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.0 (Re: [ANN] jack_capture v0.0.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ CHANGES 0.1.1 -> 0.2.0: *Automatically disconnect and connect ports while program is running. Previously, the connections where only set up when the program started. *Added make install. *Various smaller changes. On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/src/ > > > > ABOUT > ----- > jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever > sound is going out to your speakers into a file. > > This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no > one made. So here it is. > > > > USAGE > ----- > jack_capture [-f filename] [ -b bitdepth ] [-c channels] [ -B bufsize ] > > Filename is by default auotogenerated to something like > "jack_capture_.wav" > Bitdepth is by default FLOAT. > Channels is by default 2. > Bufsize is by default 262144. > > > > > ACKNOWLEDGMENT > -------------- > Mostly based on the jackrec program in the jack distribution > made by Paul Davies and Jack O'Quin. Automatic filename generation > code taken from the timemachine program by Steve Harries. > > > > > From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 00:19:20 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Fri Feb 3 00:50:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Jackit-devel] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.0 (Re: [ANN] jack_capture v0.0.1) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ CHANGES 0.1.1 -> 0.2.0: *Automatically disconnect and connect ports while program is running. Previously, the connections where only set up when the program started. *Added make install. *Various smaller changes. On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > http://www.notam02.no/arkiv/src/ > > > > ABOUT > ----- > jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever > sound is going out to your speakers into a file. > > This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no > one made. So here it is. > > > > USAGE > ----- > jack_capture [-f filename] [ -b bitdepth ] [-c channels] [ -B bufsize ] > > Filename is by default auotogenerated to something like > "jack_capture_.wav" > Bitdepth is by default FLOAT. > Channels is by default 2. > Bufsize is by default 262144. > > > > > ACKNOWLEDGMENT > -------------- > Mostly based on the jackrec program in the jack distribution > made by Paul Davies and Jack O'Quin. Automatic filename generation > code taken from the timemachine program by Steve Harries. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 18:51:03 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Fri Feb 3 18:51:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cesare Marilungo wrote: > line 371: > char *optstring = "d:c:b:B:h"; > > 'd' should have been 'f'. Sorry, I already found this when got v0.1.1 > and forgot to write you. :-) Thanks! New version is up at http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ 0.2.0 -> 0.2.1: * Removed optional -f argument (that didn't work anyway) for setting the filename. Usage for program is now: "jack_capture [ -b bitdepth ] [-c channels] [ -B bufsize ] [filename]" Thanks to Cesare Marilungo for pointing out the bug. * Sound filename is also printed to the screen. From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Fri Feb 3 18:51:03 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Fri Feb 3 19:20:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Jackit-devel] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cesare Marilungo wrote: > line 371: > char *optstring = "d:c:b:B:h"; > > 'd' should have been 'f'. Sorry, I already found this when got v0.1.1 > and forgot to write you. :-) Thanks! New version is up at http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ 0.2.0 -> 0.2.1: * Removed optional -f argument (that didn't work anyway) for setting the filename. Usage for program is now: "jack_capture [ -b bitdepth ] [-c channels] [ -B bufsize ] [filename]" Thanks to Cesare Marilungo for pointing out the bug. * Sound filename is also printed to the screen. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From conrad at metadecks.org Fri Feb 3 19:36:21 2006 From: conrad at metadecks.org (Conrad Parker) Date: Fri Feb 3 19:36:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] beatfish (codedump :) Message-ID: <20060204003621.GK30180@vergenet.net> Hi, a few years ago I made a drum machine with scrubbing, and showed it to some people at the LAD booth at LinuxTag 2003. Recently (at linux.conf.au 2006) I realized I've sat on the code and not released it. This is not a "release", but a challenge; here's some code, and some instructions for building it: http://trac.metadecks.org/wiki/BeatfishInstall Beatfish is built on libremix (which is also not-quite-released; I'd like to freeze the API sometime this year though ;-) and Evas (a very high performance graphics canvas built for Enlightenment 17). The plan is to make a way of developing cute music machines, using DSSI and all that's good. For now, beatfish is a pretty basic Jack toy. enjoy :) Conrad. From hans at fugal.net Sat Feb 4 20:01:06 2006 From: hans at fugal.net (Hans Fugal) Date: Sat Feb 4 20:01:19 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ANN: Csound 5.00 Release In-Reply-To: <200602021903.24877.ivarga@csounds.com> References: <200602021903.24877.ivarga@csounds.com> Message-ID: <20060205010106.GB6859@falcon.fugal.net> This is great news, congratulations to all the developers. I'll get started on the Debian package ASAP. On Thu, 2 Feb 2006 at 19:03 +0100, Istvan Varga wrote: > After what has seemed a very long time (because it was...) we are > releasing csound5.00 > The binary, manuals and source files are on > http://sourceforge.net/projects/csound and look for the csound5 files. > The opportunity has been taken to tidy up the assembly of csound4.23 > and earlier files and we are leaving the 4.23 files for a short while. > Main message -- everyone should change to csound5. More robust, > faster, more facilities, more fun, more music. > > ==John ffitch > > Release Notes for Csound 5.00 > ----------------------------- > > The developers are very pleased to be releasing Csound5, for Linux (32 > and 64 bit), Mac OSX and Windows, together with an uptodate manual. > > The system can be downloaded from http://sourceforge.net/projects/csound > > More details and further information can be found in the csound-devel > mailing list at sourceforge and the main user mailing list at > csound@lists.bath.ac.uk > > The changes from version 4.23 are extensive. The internal structure of > the code has been radically changed, but the language remains compatible > with Csound4, and all old orchestra/scores should run unchanged. > > The main visible change is that we are using a plugin style of system. > Many of the opcodes are now loaded at start-up. This opens the way for > private opcode libraries, and opcodes released under other licences than > LGPL. > > The other major change is a move to the use of external libraries where > possible. All the internal code for sound files, realtime audio etc has > been replaced. We are now using libsndfile for audio file I/O, and one > of ALSA, PortAudio, CoreAudio, MME or ASIO for realtime. MIDI may be > handled by PortMIDI as well. The incorporation of Open Sound Control > facilities uses the liblo library. > > A number of opcodes from csoundAV and csoundVST are now part of the main > system. > > Another major change is that Csound5 is embeddable in other programming > systems, using an API for information linkage. We are including Python, > Java and other bindings for the API. Csound5 can also have multiple > instances and is re-entrant. > > In addition there are a number of new opcodes, and of course bug fixes. > We believe that csound5 is faster than csound4, and we encourage all > users to move to it. > > NOTE: IT MAY BE NECESSARY ON SOME PLATFORMS TO HAVE EITHER ENVIRONMENT > VARIABLES OPCODEDIR OR OPCODEDIR64 SET TO POINT TO DIRECTORY WHERE > OPCODES LIVE. > THE RELEASED FILES ARE BELIEVED TO BE SAFE AND CORRECT IN THIS RESPECT > BUT BEWARE! > > New features: > ------------ > Access to multiple ALSA devices > FLTK widgets reworked and synchronised with csoundAV > User defined gens with names (rather than numbers) > --expression-opt command option > Information on time for each phase of csound if required > Command line options to set ID tags in output soundfile > (title/copyright etc) > Jack available as output device > --sched option now accepts a priority value > -+rtaudio option to select output system > Many new command line options > Utilities to create csd files from orc/score > Tcl/TK frontends (cstclsh and cswish) > Can use looping structures in WAV files as well as AIFF > Increased number of possible input and output audio file formats > named channels > #ifdef in orchestra > removed limitation of only one track in MIDI input files > MIDI output can also be written to a file (this is somewhat limited) > MIDI-style extra time and release (xtratim, linsegr, etc.) is now also > possible with score notes > string variables (of type S) > automatic conversion of some C-style escape sequences > (\n, \r, ASCII code in octal \ooo format, etc) in string constants > made internal indexes to orchestra variables 32 bit (was 16 bit in > Csound 4), > allowing for larger and more complex instruments > replaced old PVOC format with PVOC-EX in all related opcodes > SADIR SSDIR and INCDIR can now be a sdemicolon separated list of > directories > > New Opcodes: > ----------- > maxk > tab, tabw, and tb0()..tb15() > vst4cs plugin opcodes > pconvolve > ftconv > loris opcodes > Python opcodes > fluid opcodes > chani and chano; chnset and chnget (string indexed) > GEN43 > a number of pvs (streaming phase vocoder) opcodes > moogladder > statevar > fofilter > syncgrain > miditempo > event_i > reverbsc (Sean Costello's waveguide reverb) > freeverb > gentune GEN operation > GEN51 > GEN52 > diskin2 > turnoff2 > a-rate int() and frac(), and round(), floor(), and ceil() > << and >> operators > STK (Perry Cook) instruments available from original code > k() function > Mixer opcodes > OSCrecv, OSClisten, OSCsend > loop opcodes > printf, printf_i > string hacking opcodes > > Bug Fixes: > --------- > Error in tablew fixed > Minor fixed in dcblock > Include files were confused by sections > Improved reading of command line > Fixes in dynamic fgen numbers > gogobel and vibraphone amplitude fix > Arguments to schewhen were wrong > Better checking in bqrez > minor checking in grain > wguide2, wguide1 avoid very low frequencies > wgpluck bug fix > Some error messages corrected and typos fixed > FLsetVal arguments were wrong > outo missed out channel 6 > fixed bugs and improved error reporting in ^+ and ^- code. > kread, kdump and a number of other opcodes will take string arguments > from the score > bug fix in sinc window (gen20) > Added iskip options to moogvcf, vco, bqrez, pareq, tbvcf and rezzy > values rounded rather than truncated in deltap, comb, and delay > removed spurious initial values from some MIDI opcodes > Joystick was upside down > lpshold and loopseg changed to agree with csoundAV > marimba now allows zero probability of a multiple strike > Added skipinit argument to diskin and soundin > wave-terrain fixes for phase error accumulation (on long notes) > new optional argument to delayr and all deltap opcodes, to allow delay > taps to read from any of the nested delayr/delayw pairs, not just the > last > new optional argument to distort1 opcode (defaults to zero), to select > amplitude scaling mode (0: default, compatible with original version; > 1: relative to 0dBFS, same as mode 0 if 0dbfs is 32768; 2: unscaled) > valpass fixed parameter overwriting > Improved accuracy in some filters > Improvements in bowedbar > > JPff -- 1 Feb 2006 > > Files on Sourceforge > ==================== > > Sources: > Csound5.00_src.tar.gz > Csound5.00_src.zip > Csound5.00_OS9_src.smi.bin > Csound5.00_src_all.tar.gz (including Loris and STK code) > Csound5.00_src_all.zip (including Loris and STK code) > > Manual > Csound5.00_manual_chm.zip > Csound5.00_manual_html.zip > Csound5.00_manual_pdf.zip > Csound5.00_manual_pdf_A4.zip > Csound5.00_manual_single_file.zip > > OS9: > Csound5.00_OS9.smi.bin > > OSX: > Csound5.00_OSX10.3.tar.gz > Csound5.00_OSX10.4.tar.gz > > Linux > Csound5.00_i686.rpm > Csound5.00_x86_64.rpm > [Linux for non-root users > Csound5.00_x86_64d.tar.gz > Csound5.00_x86_64f.tar.gz > ] > > Windows > Csound5.00_win32.i686.zip > Csound5.00_win32.exe (with installer) > -- Hans Fugal ; http://hans.fugal.net There's nothing remarkable about it. All one has to do is hit the right keys at the right time and the instrument plays itself. -- Johann Sebastian Bach -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/attachments/20060204/70c2cc9d/attachment-0001.bin From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sun Feb 5 17:56:01 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Sun Feb 5 17:56:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (Sorry for all the double-postings. I have no idea why that happens.) ABOUT ----- jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever sound is going out to your speakers into a file. This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no one made. So here it is. CHANGES ------- 0.2.1 -> 0.2.2: *Only connect/disconnect ports if its necessary. This puts less stress on the jack system and avoids possible never ending connect/reconnecting loops. *Replaced the timemachine-way of automatically setting filename by a much simpler one. Now the autogenerated filename is just jack_capture_.wav: jack_capture_1.wav, jack_capture_2.wav, jack_capture_3.wav and so on. *If jack is shut down during recording, stop the recording properly. *Various smaller changes. http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetism/src/ From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sun Feb 5 17:56:01 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Sun Feb 5 18:21:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Jackit-devel] [ANN] jack_capture v0.2.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: (Sorry for all the double-postings. I have no idea why that happens.) ABOUT ----- jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever sound is going out to your speakers into a file. This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no one made. So here it is. CHANGES ------- 0.2.1 -> 0.2.2: *Only connect/disconnect ports if its necessary. This puts less stress on the jack system and avoids possible never ending connect/reconnecting loops. *Replaced the timemachine-way of automatically setting filename by a much simpler one. Now the autogenerated filename is just jack_capture_.wav: jack_capture_1.wav, jack_capture_2.wav, jack_capture_3.wav and so on. *If jack is shut down during recording, stop the recording properly. *Various smaller changes. http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetism/src/ ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From conrad.berhoerster at gmx.de Wed Feb 8 07:08:12 2006 From: conrad.berhoerster at gmx.de (conrad =?utf-8?q?berh=C3=B6rster?=) Date: Wed Feb 8 09:04:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: templates - little bit OT In-Reply-To: References: <20060120124125.C46032AFE9E@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <200602081308.13343.conrad.berhoerster@gmx.de> Sorry, I'm a little bit to late with this reply. but can you give me a hint, how you have done that gcc will refuse that. thanks c~ Am Freitag 20 Januar 2006 23:43 schrieb Kjetil S. Matheussen: > Lars Luthman: > > On Thu, 2006-01-19 at 00:41 +0100, conrad berh?rster wrote: > >> class MyClass > >> { > >> MyClass(); > >> MyClass(n,n); > >> private: > >> matrix > >> }; > >> > >> this means, at runtime, i want to set the size of the matrix. is this > >> possible? this are divers concepts (templates and runtime) , aren't > >> they? > > > > It is not possible. Templates are instantiated at compile time. > > Nah, its possible on the fly to generate code, compile the code, and link > it. I have done that many times. > > > -- From x at branwelt.de Wed Feb 8 11:25:28 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Wed Feb 8 11:24:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] rosegarden dssi problem In-Reply-To: <200602081335.55831.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> References: <847949093-1137798358-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-13016-@engine03.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> <200601271138.35558.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43DA2DCF.90309@branwelt.de> <200602081335.55831.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> Message-ID: <43EA1B78.2000103@branwelt.de> Chris Cannam wrote: >It doesn't appear to be anything to do with the audio connections to or from >the plugin -- rather, the plugin doesn't seem to be being referred to at all >during playback. > >A couple of things I ought to check, if you don't mind: > > * Does it make any difference whether you have the default autoload file or >your custom one? That is, if you move ~/.kde/config/rosegarden/autoload.rg >out of the way and run again with "factory settings", do you still get this >problem? Just vaguely wondering whether it's connected to the synth >configuration in the autoload. > > * Is this a 32 or 64-bit build? > 32 bit Deleting the default-studio did not help The mystery: When the file "test_dssi_01.rg" is saved as default-studio and opened at start, or from the menu "File/New" the sound is ok. When the file "test_dssi_01.rg" is opened from the menu with "File/Open", there is no sound. Here is again some output. >From playhead command 'play' to playhead command 'stop' only. The first is the from the working file, the second from the non-working file. (Note: It is both the same file, but once loaded as 'defaul-studio' and secondly loaded from the file via "File/Open") Note: In the non-working output there are DSSIPluginInstance messages missing. Thanks for having a look at it Emanuel ######################################################### # start working output (sound) AlsaDriver::setMIDIClockInterval( 0.020833333R) AlsaDriver::stopClocks AlsaDriver::stopClocks: ALSA time now is 0.000000000R AlsaDriver - initialisePlayback Adding NOTE OFF at 0.121333332R AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: time 0.000000000R DSSIPluginInstance::sendEvent at 0.000000000R Adding NOTE OFF at 0.374999999R AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: Need JACK start (m_playing = 1) AlsaDriver::startClocks: playing, prebuffer audio DSSIPluginInstance::setIdealChannelCount: channel count 2 (was 2) DSSIPluginInstance::silence: m_run 1, m_runSinceReset 0 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.000000000R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.000000000R, blockTime 0.000000000R, frameOffset 0, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 1 events JackDriver::startTransport RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 30, current token 30 JackDriver::startTransport: asking JACK transport to start, setting wait state AlsaDriver::startClocks: Waiting for startClocksApproved RosegardenSequencerApp::incrementTransportToken: incrementing to 31 Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - STOP Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - got unhandled MIDI event type from ALSA sequencer(34) seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: state 3 [starting], frame 0, waiting 1, playing 1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: m_waitingState 3, unique_1 104, unique_2 104 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: rate 48000, bar 0, beat 0, tick 134662393, bpm 1.37604e-269 RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 30, current token 31 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: Sync complete seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: state 3 [starting], frame 0, waiting 1, playing 1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: m_waitingState 3, unique_1 105, unique_2 105 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: rate 48000, bar 0, beat 0, tick 134662393, bpm 1.37604e-269 RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 30, current token 31 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: Sync complete seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackProcess: transport rolling, telling ALSA driver to go! AlsaDriver::startClocks: startClocksApproved AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: started clocks Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - CONTINUE seq time is 0.000156000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.011499182R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.010666666R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.029156298R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.021333332R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.041513604R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.031999998R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.052742348R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.042666664R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.053333330R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.065915654R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.063999996R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.077566398R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.074666662R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.088989142R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.085333328R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.101249886R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.095999994R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.113531192R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.106666660R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.124510374R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.117333326R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.136223118R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.127999992R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.138666658R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.151209548R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.149333324R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.162577292R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.159999990R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.174093036R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.170666656R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.185328218R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.181333322R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.197321524R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.191999988R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.210021830R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.202666654R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.221326012R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.213333320R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: time 0.374999999R DSSIPluginInstance::sendEvent at 0.374999999R seq time is 0.232393194R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.223999986R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.223999986R, frameOffset 7248, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.243292938R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.234666652R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.234666652R, frameOffset 6735, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.254317120R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.245333318R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.245333318R, frameOffset 6223, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.265529302R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.255999984R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.255999984R, frameOffset 5712, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.266666650R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.266666650R, frameOffset 5199, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.277690608R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.277333316R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.277333316R, frameOffset 4687, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.297640848R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.287999982R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.287999982R, frameOffset 4176, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.309102592R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.298666648R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.298666648R, frameOffset 3663, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.309333314R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.309333314R, frameOffset 3151, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.320642336R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.319999980R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.319999980R, frameOffset 2640, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.333725642R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.330666646R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.330666646R, frameOffset 2127, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.344299824R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.341333312R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.341333312R, frameOffset 1615, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events Adding NOTE OFF at 0.621333332R AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: time 0.500000000R DSSIPluginInstance::sendEvent at 0.500000000R Adding NOTE OFF at 0.874999999R seq time is 0.356253568R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.351999978R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 2 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.351999978R, frameOffset 1104, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.367556312R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.362666644R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 2 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.362666644R, frameOffset 591, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.379323056R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.373333310R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 2 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.374999999R, blockTime 0.373333310R, frameOffset 79, blockSize 512 Type: 7, pitch: 60, velocity: 127 DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.373333310R, frameOffset 6079, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 1 events seq time is 0.390316238R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.383999976R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.383999976R, frameOffset 5568, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.403426106R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.394666642R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.394666642R, frameOffset 5055, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.414295288R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.405333308R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.405333308R, frameOffset 4543, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.426105032R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.415999974R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.415999974R, frameOffset 4032, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.426666640R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.426666640R, frameOffset 3519, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.439008338R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.437333306R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.437333306R, frameOffset 3007, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.450445082R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.447999972R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.447999972R, frameOffset 2496, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.463313388R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.458666638R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.458666638R, frameOffset 1983, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.474297570R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.469333304R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.469333304R, frameOffset 1471, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.485281752R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.479999970R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.479999970R, frameOffset 960, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.498070620R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.490666636R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: event buffer has 1 event(s) in it DSSIPluginInstance::run: evTime 0.500000000R, blockTime 0.490666636R, frameOffset 447, blockSize 512 Type: 6, pitch: 60, velocity: 100 DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 1 events DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.501333302R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.514479612R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 DSSIPluginInstance::run( 0.511999968R) DSSIPluginInstance::run: running with 0 events seq time is 0.526663918R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 AlsaDriver - stopPlayback JackDriver::stopTransport: resetting m_haveAsyncAudioEvent JackDriver::stop: frames this play: 39094272, elapsed 1139414455.715766000R RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 30, current token 31 JackDriver::stop: internal request, asking JACK transport to stop DSSIPluginInstance::discardEvents DSSIPluginInstance::setIdealChannelCount: channel count 2 (was 2) DSSIPluginInstance::silence: m_run 1, m_runSinceReset 1 DSSIPluginInstance::deactivate dssi:/usr/local/lib/dssi/less_trivial_synth.so:LTS DSSIPluginInstance[0x82ad1c0]::activate DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 1 to 440 DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 2 to 0.1189 DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 3 to 0.0793 DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 4 to 35 DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 5 to 0.3292 DSSIPluginInstance::activate: setting port 6 to 0.19 AlsaDriver::punchOut AlsaDriver::stopClocks AlsaDriver::stopClocks: ALSA time now is 0.000000000R AlsaDriver::startClocks: startClocksApproved AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: started clocks RosegardenSequencerApp::incrementTransportToken: incrementing to 32 Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - STOP Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - got unhandled MIDI event type from ALSA sequencer(34) Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - CONTINUE AudioPlayQueue::~AudioPlayQueue() AudioPlayQueue::~AudioPlayQueue() # end working output ######################################################### ######################################################### # start failed output (no-sound) AlsaDriver::setMIDIClockInterval( 0.020833333R) AlsaDriver::stopClocks AlsaDriver::stopClocks: ALSA time now is 0.000000000R AlsaDriver - initialisePlayback Adding NOTE OFF at 0.099999999R AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 Adding NOTE OFF at 0.374999999R AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: Need JACK start (m_playing = 1) AlsaDriver::startClocks: playing, prebuffer audio JackDriver::startTransport RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 20, current token 20 JackDriver::startTransport: asking JACK transport to start, setting wait state AlsaDriver::startClocks: Waiting for startClocksApproved RosegardenSequencerApp::incrementTransportToken: incrementing to 21 Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - STOP Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - got unhandled MIDI event type from ALSA sequencer(34) seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: state 3 [starting], frame 0, waiting 1, playing 1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: m_waitingState 3, unique_1 96, unique_2 96 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: rate 48000, bar 0, beat 0, tick 134662393, bpm 1.37604e-269 RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 20, current token 21 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: Sync complete seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: state 3 [starting], frame 0, waiting 1, playing 1 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: m_waitingState 3, unique_1 97, unique_2 97 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: rate 48000, bar 0, beat 0, tick 134662393, bpm 1.37604e-269 RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 20, current token 21 JackDriver::jackSyncCallback: Sync complete seq time is 0.000000000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 JackDriver::jackProcess: transport rolling, telling ALSA driver to go! AlsaDriver::startClocks: startClocksApproved AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: started clocks Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - CONTINUE seq time is 0.000226000R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.039325480R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.052404786R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.066573216R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.080642084R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.093585390R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.106012696R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.119615564R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.139419804R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.158640044R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.177669722R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.192489714R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.206581582R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.219373888R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 seq time is 0.243305938R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.256898806R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.269274550R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.285225104R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.299553972R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.313780402R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.329023832R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.341850700R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 Adding NOTE OFF at 0.599999999R AlsaDriver::processSoftSynthEventOut: instrument 10000, now 0 Adding NOTE OFF at 0.874999999R seq time is 0.356041568R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.368840874R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.382692742R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.397487734R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.410835040R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.424666908R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.437555776R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.451884644R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.467914198R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.480876504R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.503458430R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.516676298R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.529573604R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.542605910R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.566951960R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.579670266R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.595584258R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 seq time is 0.611719812R, last MTC receive 0.000000000R, first time -1 AlsaDriver - stopPlayback JackDriver::stopTransport: resetting m_haveAsyncAudioEvent JackDriver::stop: frames this play: 36195328, elapsed 1139414395.325778000R RosegardenSequencerApp::isTransportSyncComplete: token 20, current token 21 JackDriver::stop: internal request, asking JACK transport to stop AlsaDriver::punchOut AlsaDriver::stopClocks AlsaDriver::stopClocks: ALSA time now is 0.000000000R AlsaDriver::startClocks: startClocksApproved AlsaDriver::startClocks AlsaDriver::startClocks: started clocks RosegardenSequencerApp::incrementTransportToken: incrementing to 22 Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - STOP Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - got unhandled MIDI event type from ALSA sequencer(34) Received non-controller event (dest=129:0, controller is 129:2) AlsaDriver::getMappedComposition - CONTINUE AudioPlayQueue::~AudioPlayQueue() AudioPlayQueue::~AudioPlayQueue() # end failed output (no-sound) ######################################################### From x at branwelt.de Wed Feb 8 13:50:33 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Wed Feb 8 13:49:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] rosegarden dssi problem In-Reply-To: <200602081712.36620.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> References: <847949093-1137798358-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-13016-@engine03.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> <200602081335.55831.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43EA1B78.2000103@branwelt.de> <200602081712.36620.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> Message-ID: <43EA3D79.9030102@branwelt.de> Chris Cannam wrote: >I think we need some more debug info, or a debugger run, to find out why >MappedPluginSlot::~MappedPluginSlot is being called (if it is). > > Which tools (ide/debugger) do you use? But think I won't help here, as I have no idea, how to debug C programs >btw, is this build done with or without debug information? > > DEBUG_DSSI 1 DEBUG_DSSI_PROCESS 1 were set Emanuel From x at branwelt.de Wed Feb 8 14:17:16 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Wed Feb 8 14:16:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] rosegarden dssi problem In-Reply-To: <43EA3D79.9030102@branwelt.de> References: <847949093-1137798358-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-13016-@engine03.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> <200602081335.55831.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43EA1B78.2000103@branwelt.de> <200602081712.36620.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43EA3D79.9030102@branwelt.de> Message-ID: <43EA43BC.3030007@branwelt.de> Emanuel Rumpf wrote: >Chris Cannam wrote: > > > >>I think we need some more debug info, or a debugger run, to find out why >>MappedPluginSlot::~MappedPluginSlot is being called (if it is). >> >> >> I've added debug-output to MappedPluginSlot::~MappedPluginSlot It is obviously being called: RosegardenGUIDoc::xmlParse (reader.parse()): 90ms elapsed ~MappedPluginSlot() - MappedStudio.cpp DSSIPluginInstance::~DSSIPluginInstance DSSIPluginInstance::deactivate dssi:/usr/local/lib/dssi/less_trivial_synth.so:LT S DSSIPluginInstance::cleanup dssi:/usr/local/lib/dssi/less_trivial_synth.so:LTS DSSIPluginInstance::cleanup dssi:/usr/local/lib/dssi/less_trivial_synth.so:LTS d one it's called 2 times in the non-working output, but no-times in the working output. From parumi at iua.upf.es Thu Feb 9 08:02:12 2006 From: parumi at iua.upf.es (Pau Arumi) Date: Thu Feb 9 07:58:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] CLAM 0.90 Released Message-ID: <43EB3D54.3010802@iua.upf.es> Wed Feb 8 2006 CLAM 0.90 Released ====================================== ?New multiplied build-system, fancy applications and inter- connectivity' What is CLAM? CLAM is a framework for research and application development in the Audio and Music Domain. It offers a conceptual model as well as tools for the analysis, synthesis and processing of audio signals. We are glad to announce that our new 0.90 release is already available at our (also brand new) website: http://clam.iua.upf.edu. This release represents a big step forward to our soon to come first stable 1.0 release and includes major improvements. For the first time the CLAM framework and all related applications are available in binary form for all major platforms: deb packages are provided for Ubuntu/Debian GNU/Linux, dmg images for Mac OSX and setup executables for Windows. This change has represented a complete but necessary (and painful!) rework of our build system, which is now based on small binary libraries and uses Scons as the build tool. We expect it to reduce drastically the complexity of the compilation and installation of clam applications for the end-user. Other major improvements include a complete rework of the SMSTools, application GUI, which is now based on Qt, as well as many additions to the Annotator app. A CLAM Network can now also become an Open Sound Control (OSC) node, opening up the possibility of interconnection to external applications. In the 'Application Prototyping' chapter we'd like to mention that we have also added complete tools to create both VST and LADSPA plugins out of a previously designed network. It is also worth noticing the possibility of creating stand-alone applications with a GUI created using the great Qt-designer and the CLAM Qt-plugins. Such standalone applications can behave either as a Jack client (for GNU/Linux and Mac OSX) or use audio backends like alsa or Portaudio. Please read these and other improvements in the attached changelog and visit our website and/our mailing list for further announcements. Although we are continuing to work toward the 1.0 release and we expect to come up with new improvements soon, we hope all these additions already convert the framework into a more usable and useful tool and, as always, we expect as much feedback as possible from all our users. The CLAM team -------------- next part -------------- CLAM ChangeLog 2006-02-07 CLAM_0_90_0 'New multiplatform build-system, fancy applications and interconnectivity' * Building and packaging + New build system based on scons + Binary libraries + Standard library installation + CLAM applications just link against the libraries + CLAM and all provided applications are working multiplatform (Linux/MacOSX/Windows) + Easy to use installers for MacOSX, Windows and Linux (Debian) + Ported to g++ 4.0 * Rappid prototyping infrastructure + New external-generators/sinks and external-control-senders/receiver classes. o They glue specific architecture (jack, portaudio, ladspa, vst) ports with a clam network. * New hierarchy of network-players classes, with these (final) classes: + JACKNetworkPlayer, + PortAudioNetworkPlayer, + BlockingNetworkPlayer, * LADSPA Plugins (Linux): A generic plugin that embeds a network can be easily created by just providing the path to a valid network xml file. * VST Plugins (Mac/Windows): A generic plugin that embeds a network can be easily created by just providing the path to a valid network xml file. * OSC (Open Sound Control): A network (for instance from the Network Editor) can now send an receive OSC messages and interconnect to other applications that follow this protocol. * MIDI files + New classes to read/write standard MIDI files * Qt Visualization Module + Support for multidisplay plots. + BPFEditor: multiple BPF allowed + Faster rendering of plots using buffered pixmaps * QtSMSTools2: New! A total rewrite of SMSTools2 GUI using the Qt toolkit. + Multidisplay implementation sharing common axis o Spectrogram (Color,Black&White) o Improved player: audio and fundamental frequency o More suitable dialogs to configure projects * NetworkEditor + New callback audio-driving mode. This allow different modes (specified as command line options) o Jack client mode (not in Windows) o PortAudio mode o Blocking mode * Annotator + New segment editor: o Different annotation restrictions depending on the schema. Right now: # Continuous segmentation (no gap) # Discontinous segmentation (gaps but not overlaps) o Consistent dragging o Tooltips are faster to appear o Tooltips say just the position of the hovered element instead the cursor position. o Hovering highlights the limit + Optimizations on the song switching and on the display + Inserting and removing segments now has its reflexion on the pool + Playing the wav and the auralization on different channels. + Description schema browser + Now, viable projects can be built from the interface * Spectral Analysis Synthesis + FFTOoura: o By defining a compilation flag, FFTOoura can be choosen instead of fftw by default o FFTOoura is now also implemented in the inverse FFT process 2005-07-21 CLAM_0_8_0 'Prototyper with streaming SMS transformations' * SMS Transformations on the network editor: + All SMS Transformations have been refactored in order to work in streaming mode and not only in offline mode. * New Prototyping way: + Prototyper: Allows to bind a Qt desinger interface to a Network XML definition so you can have an CLAM GUI application up an running without a single line of code. Current features: o It uses the widget names and classes to Automagically relate widgets to processings, ports and controls. o Binds sliders, knobs and so to in-controls on the network o Binds monitoring plots to out-ports on the network o Binds buttons to play/stop actions on the network * QtPlots add-ons: + Editable segmentation marks on all the plots + QtSpectrogram: o Plot to view sonogram (Color/B&W) + BPFEditor: o Editable/auralizable plot (Audio and MIDI support) * Compiler compatibility: + CLAM and its applications now compiles in GNU g++3.4 (as well as 3.3) * Audio file I/O facilities: + MP3 I/O: Bug fixed: that prevented XING headers from being used to compute duration + MP3 I/O: Bug fixed in conversion from milliseconds to seconds + Vorbis I/O: Feature addition: now the # of samples is computed for Vorbis bitstreams * Memory leak review: + FFT internal buffer was not freed on destruction * XML related changes: + Now XmlStorage::Dump does indentation by default. A new optional parameter disables indentation. + XercesC 2.6 is required in order to pass the tests and be memory leak free (even 2.3 should be enough to compile and run CLAM). + XML Storage Error Handling (This solves issue #0000022): o Catchable CLAM::XmlStorageErr excepetions are thrown whenever: # I/O error happens # Malformed XML is readed # Read elements or contents does not match with CLAM objects structure # CLAM objects detect some semantic constraints. + XPath (like) navigation (This solves issue #0000045): o The implementation of XmlStorage::Select allows using: # XmlStorage::AppendToDocument(object, path, filename) # XmlStorage::RestoreFromFragment(object, path, istream) # Using atomic primitives for doing some similar hacks like writing fragments of the XML for an object to disk. + Alternative XML Backends (LibXml++) o Unification of the way XmlStorage interfaces the library dependant code. o LibXml++ Backend implemented. It is planned to be the default backend on future releases but still some work is needed to get the error messages correctly reported. * Network refactoring: + Published{In|Out}{Controls|Ports} -> {In|Out}{Control|Port}Registry * Descriptors: + SpectralDescriptors::HighFrequencyCoefficent -> HighFrequencyContent as specified by the original literature. * Other: + ConnectPorts overloaded to connect free ports (that is not belonging to any processing, normally used for injecting or extracting data) * Build System: + Changes in order to not abort ./configure script when some library is not found (and not specifyed with the --without-libname option) 2004-11-18 CLAM_0_7_0 'Easier deployment, better plots and Processing Networks' etc. From conrad at metadecks.org Thu Feb 9 16:10:39 2006 From: conrad at metadecks.org (Conrad Parker) Date: Thu Feb 9 16:10:57 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] looking for maube ... Message-ID: <20060209211039.GI3580@vergenet.net> Hi, I'm trying to find a copy of a program called "maube": http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/ It's from 1997, and I'm hoping that maybe someone who's been around here for a while might have a copy ... I can't find a copy of the source on any of my (working) machines, or via google. I wasn't happy to discover that the HTTP "download" link is a broken symlink to a filesystem on my old university account (ie. when I copied the website across to vergenet a few years ago, I copied the symlink not the directory it pointed to...). Anyway, if you happen to have a hard drive with nine years worth of linux audio cruft on it, please 'locate maube' for me :-) I'm interested to see if it builds or runs at all any more. And then we're gonna build a new Linux desktop to rival Gnome and KDE, but based on the "Self Organising Interface Attenuator" [ok, kidding, I can't even remember what that was]: http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/screenshots.html cheers, Conrad. From x at branwelt.de Thu Feb 9 16:35:55 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Thu Feb 9 16:34:57 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] rosegarden dssi problem In-Reply-To: <200602091951.52049.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> References: <847949093-1137798358-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-13016-@engine03.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> <200602091032.46244.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> <43EB856C.4090603@branwelt.de> <200602091951.52049.chris.cannam@ferventsoftware.com> Message-ID: <43EBB5BB.3080101@branwelt.de> Chris Cannam wrote: >On Thursday 09 Feb 2006 18:09, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: > > >>Chris Cannam wrote: >> >> >>>assert(0); >>> >>> >>This had no effect. >> >> > >Oh, of course, it's that NDEBUG flag. Sorry. Try >abort(); > > Is it possible to run rg from the RGbuild directory, without first installing it? How would I debug it using kdbg? Compiling it with scons debug=full, setting the breakpoint in MappedStudio.cpp and starting it through kdb didn't seem to work / be enough. Now I have used this, so that rg didn't stop after being started: tti += 1; if (tti == 3 ){ abort(); } ...and got this output when opening the file: Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". [Thread debugging using libthread_db enabled] [New Thread -1234393408 (LWP 6323)] [New Thread -1236059216 (LWP 6325)] [KCrash handler] #3 0xb6dee7a7 in raise () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 #4 0xb6df004b in abort () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 #5 0x080d50f0 in ~MappedPluginSlot (this=0x8293068) at RGbuild/sound/MappedStudio.cpp:1279 #6 0x080d4167 in Rosegarden::MappedStudio::clear (this=0x8236968) at RGbuild/sound/MappedStudio.cpp:583 #7 0x0805f137 in RosegardenSequencerApp::clearStudio (this=0x822f418) at RGbuild/sequencer/rosegardensequencer.cpp:1563 #8 0x080778e7 in RosegardenSequencerIface::process (this=0x822f5dc, fun=@0xbfa83334, data=@0xbfa8332c, replyType=@0xbfa83324, replyData=@0xbfa8331c) at RGbuild/sequencer/rosegardensequenceriface_skel.cpp:703 #9 0xb6da93e5 in DCOPClient::receive () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #10 0xb6daaa6b in DCOPClient::find () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #11 0xb6dab345 in DCOPClient::find () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #12 0xb6db7d4e in KDE_IceProcessMessages () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #13 0xb6da378e in DCOPClient::processSocketData () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #14 0xb6dab704 in DCOPClient::qt_invoke () from /usr/lib/libDCOP.so.4 #15 0xb77bfb57 in QObject::activate_signal () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #16 0xb77c04a5 in QObject::activate_signal () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #17 0xb7b50cbc in QSocketNotifier::activated () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #18 0xb77e0569 in QSocketNotifier::event () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #19 0xb7755698 in QApplication::internalNotify () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #20 0xb77558b6 in QApplication::notify () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #21 0xb715b6fc in KApplication::notify () from /usr/lib/libkdecore.so.4 #22 0xb76e55e5 in QApplication::sendEvent () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #23 0xb7746ac9 in QEventLoop::activateSocketNotifiers () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #24 0xb76f9334 in QEventLoop::processEvents () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #25 0xb776df48 in QEventLoop::processEvents () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #26 0xb77541ca in QApplication::processEvents () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #27 0xb77541f5 in QApplication::processEvents () from /usr/share/qt3/lib/libqt-mt.so.3 #28 0x0806f9b7 in main (argc=1, argv=0xbfa83e14) at RGbuild/sequencer/main.cpp:265 From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 9 17:59:16 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Thu Feb 9 17:59:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] looking for maube ... In-Reply-To: <20060209211039.GI3580@vergenet.net> References: <20060209211039.GI3580@vergenet.net> Message-ID: <1139525956.9600.2.camel@moon> On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 08:10 +1100, Conrad Parker wrote: > Hi, > > I'm trying to find a copy of a program called "maube": > > http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/ > > It's from 1997, and I'm hoping that maybe someone who's been around here > for a while might have a copy ... http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/maube-0.10.4.tgz bzzt ;) pete. From conrad at metadecks.org Thu Feb 9 18:25:58 2006 From: conrad at metadecks.org (Conrad Parker) Date: Thu Feb 9 18:26:14 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] looking for maube ... In-Reply-To: <1139525956.9600.2.camel@moon> References: <20060209211039.GI3580@vergenet.net> <1139525956.9600.2.camel@moon> Message-ID: <20060209232558.GK3580@vergenet.net> On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 10:59:16PM +0000, peter wrote: > On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 08:10 +1100, Conrad Parker wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I'm trying to find a copy of a program called "maube": > > > > http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/ > > > > It's from 1997, and I'm hoping that maybe someone who's been around here > > for a while might have a copy ... > > http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/maube-0.10.4.tgz Oh wow, thanks peter! Add one to the number of beers I owe you. The tarball is back on the site at http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/dl/ It builds! it runs! it crashes! kfish. From torbenh at gmx.de Fri Feb 10 16:57:32 2006 From: torbenh at gmx.de (torbenh@gmx.de) Date: Fri Feb 10 17:03:33 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] looking for maube ... In-Reply-To: <20060209232558.GK3580@vergenet.net> References: <20060209211039.GI3580@vergenet.net> <1139525956.9600.2.camel@moon> <20060209232558.GK3580@vergenet.net> Message-ID: <20060210215732.GB5175@mobilat> On Fri, Feb 10, 2006 at 10:25:58AM +1100, Conrad Parker wrote: > On Thu, Feb 09, 2006 at 10:59:16PM +0000, peter wrote: > > On Fri, 2006-02-10 at 08:10 +1100, Conrad Parker wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I'm trying to find a copy of a program called "maube": > > > > > > http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/ > > > > > > It's from 1997, and I'm hoping that maybe someone who's been around here > > > for a while might have a copy ... > > > > http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/maube-0.10.4.tgz > > Oh wow, thanks peter! Add one to the number of beers I owe you. > > The tarball is back on the site at > http://www.vergenet.net/~conrad/maube/dl/ > > It builds! it runs! it crashes! whats its supposed to do ? cymbal simulation ? /me runs... ;P -- torben Hohn http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language From krampenschiesser at freenet.de Fri Feb 10 20:29:00 2006 From: krampenschiesser at freenet.de (krampenschiesser@freenet.de) Date: Fri Feb 10 20:29:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? Message-ID: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth knobs/potis/controllers? I was looking around to rotate an image which only worked in opengl... Creating a circle took too much time in sdl. Thanks for your help. grtz Scar -- It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics and chemistry. -- H.L. Mencken From paul at linuxaudiosystems.com Fri Feb 10 20:36:55 2006 From: paul at linuxaudiosystems.com (Paul Davis) Date: Fri Feb 10 20:34:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: <1139621815.4790.64.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 02:29 +0100, krampenschiesser@freenet.de wrote: > Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth knobs/potis/controllers? > I was looking around to rotate an image which only worked in opengl... > Creating a circle took too much time in sdl. the gimp has/had an animation tool that worked well for this (a few years ago), although it takes a little playing with it to understand how to use it. From b0ef at esben-stien.name Sat Feb 11 01:00:43 2006 From: b0ef at esben-stien.name (Esben Stien) Date: Fri Feb 10 23:10:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> (krampenschiesser@freenet.de's message of "Sat, 11 Feb 2006 02:29:00 +0100") References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: <87lkwi3050.fsf@esben-stien.name> krampenschiesser@freenet.de writes: > Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth > knobs/potis/controllers? http://cairographics.org -- Esben Stien is b0ef@e s a http://www. s t n m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact [sip|iax]: e e jid:b0ef@ n n From richard.spindler at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 04:03:13 2006 From: richard.spindler at gmail.com (Richard Spindler) Date: Sat Feb 11 04:03:17 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: <4af8d6ff0602110103j69fbc544m@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/11, krampenschiesser@freenet.de : > Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth knobs/potis/controllers? > I was looking around to rotate an image which only worked in opengl... > Creating a circle took too much time in sdl. > Thanks for your help. > grtz Scar This is a fancy Knob Widget for FLTK, I'm sure it's drawing code can be adapted to other toolkits. http://www-timc.imag.fr/Yves.Usson/personnel/Widgets/knob.html -Richard From krampenschiesser at freenet.de Sat Feb 11 06:23:13 2006 From: krampenschiesser at freenet.de (krampenschiesser@freenet.de) Date: Sat Feb 11 06:23:20 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: <20060211122313.56ad4ad1.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Thank you for your fast response. I'll look into it :D -- After a number of decimal places, nobody gives a damn. From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Sat Feb 11 22:24:57 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Sat Feb 11 22:25:23 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 02:29 +0100, krampenschiesser@freenet.de wrote: > Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth knobs/potis/controllers? > I was looking around to rotate an image which only worked in opengl... Assuming for a moment that you don't have strict memory requirements, you might want to consider loading an animation and swapping the frames when the controller is moved. There are a few implementations in qt and gtk that use this method and i've created some animations in blender (http://www.blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html) for one based on this widget (from galan): http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/galan/galan/src/gtkknob.c?rev=1.8&view=markup The benefits: easy eye candy (pretty and complex prerendered knobs) with little or no custom drawing code (depends on the toolkit your using) easy to change the appearence by changing the animation fairly easy on the cpu The downsides: static images == a finite step resolution memory usage (probably >100K at least for a smoothly animated knob) learning to use or finding someone to use a 3d modeller or animation tool. For example, this shot shows a work in progress interface for a DSSI synth plugin. I rendered the knobs in blender with an alpha channel to get translucent shadows. The widget uses generic gtk functions to render each frame over the background as the knob is turned. It looks pretty nice in action, even if it's an eye candy overdose for some tastes. (if you dispense with the alpha and transparency, it's naturally faster) http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/purgatory.png If you're holding out for an algorithmic solution of some kind.. ..i just wasted your time ;) Cheers, Pete. -- ====================== paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad kickback@users.sourceforge.net ====================== From thockin at hockin.org Sat Feb 11 22:34:02 2006 From: thockin at hockin.org (thockin@hockin.org) Date: Sat Feb 11 22:30:22 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> Message-ID: <20060212033402.GA6482@hockin.org> On Sun, Feb 12, 2006 at 03:24:57AM +0000, peter wrote: > For example, this shot shows a work in progress interface for a DSSI > synth plugin. I rendered the knobs in blender with an alpha channel to > get translucent shadows. The widget uses generic gtk functions to > render each frame over the background as the knob is turned. > It looks pretty nice in action, even if it's an eye candy overdose > for some tastes. > (if you dispense with the alpha and transparency, it's naturally faster) > http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/purgatory.png This is not really as overkill as you'd think - it's kind of the defacto way things look on Windows/Mac plugins. Shadows and all. From loki.davison at gmail.com Sat Feb 11 22:35:50 2006 From: loki.davison at gmail.com (Loki Davison) Date: Sat Feb 11 22:35:55 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> Message-ID: On 2/12/06, peter wrote: > On Sat, 2006-02-11 at 02:29 +0100, krampenschiesser@freenet.de wrote: > > Does anyone know a good way to write code that renders synth > knobs/potis/controllers? > > I was looking around to rotate an image which only worked in opengl... > > Assuming for a moment that you don't have strict memory requirements, > you might want to consider loading an animation and swapping the frames > when the controller is moved. There are a few implementations in qt and > gtk that use this method and i've created some animations in blender > (http://www.blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html) for one based on this > widget (from galan): > http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/galan/galan/src/gtkknob.c?rev=1.8&view=markup > > The benefits: > > easy eye candy (pretty and complex prerendered knobs) with little or no > custom drawing code (depends on the toolkit your using) > easy to change the appearence by changing the animation > fairly easy on the cpu > > The downsides: > > static images == a finite step resolution > memory usage (probably >100K at least for a smoothly animated knob) > learning to use or finding someone to use a 3d modeller or animation > tool. > > For example, this shot shows a work in progress interface for a DSSI > synth plugin. I rendered the knobs in blender with an alpha channel to > get translucent shadows. The widget uses generic gtk functions to > render each frame over the background as the knob is turned. > It looks pretty nice in action, even if it's an eye candy overdose > for some tastes. > (if you dispense with the alpha and transparency, it's naturally faster) > http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/purgatory.png > > > If you're holding out for an algorithmic solution of some kind.. > ..i just wasted your time ;) > > Cheers, > Pete. > > -- > > ====================== > paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad > kickback@users.sourceforge.net > ====================== Please, pretty please get rid of the keyboard. If you want a sexy keyboard, skin vkeybd don't include a keyboard in your dssi. Apart from that i actually quite like it. Loki From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Sat Feb 11 23:28:06 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Sat Feb 11 23:28:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> Message-ID: <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 14:35 +1100, Loki Davison wrote: > Please, pretty please get rid of the keyboard. If you want a sexy > keyboard, skin vkeybd don't include a keyboard in your dssi. Apart > from that i actually quite like it. assuming i ever finish it and it gets used (2 big ifs), it will be used in the standalone version too and the keyboard was requested. i always intended it to be optional/hideable anyway (and hidden by default, it's large enough already even without the keyboard). do you still object to it's presence even if you don't use or look at it? (i prefer to offer the choice myself. pleases most people at the expense of minor bloat). ultimately, i'd like the widget itself to be native or skinable, the same for the knob and to put that and any other useful widgets into a lib (or merge it with an exiting one) so that other audio apps could use them. but i also wanted to have finished it last year so you can take that with a pinch of salt. Pete. ====================== paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad kickback@users.sourceforge.net ====================== From loki.davison at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 00:16:39 2006 From: loki.davison at gmail.com (Loki Davison) Date: Sun Feb 12 00:16:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> Message-ID: On 2/12/06, peter wrote: > On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 14:35 +1100, Loki Davison wrote: > > > Please, pretty please get rid of the keyboard. If you want a sexy > > keyboard, skin vkeybd don't include a keyboard in your dssi. Apart > > from that i actually quite like it. > > assuming i ever finish it and it gets used (2 big ifs), it will be used > in the standalone version too and the keyboard was requested. > i always intended it to be optional/hideable anyway (and hidden by > default, it's large enough already even without the keyboard). > > do you still object to it's presence even if you don't use or look at > it? > (i prefer to offer the choice myself. pleases most people at the expense > of minor bloat). > > > ultimately, i'd like the widget itself to be native or skinable, the > same for the knob and to put that and any other useful widgets into a > lib (or merge it with an exiting one) so that other audio apps could use > them. > but i also wanted to have finished it last year so you can take that > with a pinch of salt. > > Pete. > > ====================== > paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad > kickback@users.sourceforge.net > ====================== Yeah, i probably still object to it's presence. What is the point of a standalone version? What is wrong with just using jack-dssi-host? If you want a standalone version, you can just have a script, jack-dssi-host myplugin called myplugin for people to run. Though the other idea sounds nice. Easy to skin widgets with lots of functionality are great. Maybe you can merge them into libphat? It's specifically for that purpose, though i don't know Pete's plans for it. Loki From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Sun Feb 12 00:34:03 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Sun Feb 12 00:34:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> Message-ID: <1139722443.14309.122.camel@moon> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 16:16 +1100, Loki Davison wrote: > > do you still object to it's presence even if you don't use or look at > > it? > Yeah, i probably still object to it's presence. What is the point of a > standalone version? What is wrong with just using jack-dssi-host? If > you want a standalone version, you can just have a script, > jack-dssi-host myplugin called myplugin for people to run. Though the > other idea sounds nice. Easy to skin widgets with lots of > functionality are great. Maybe you can merge them into libphat? It's > specifically for that purpose, though i don't know Pete's plans for > it. Okies. Can't say i understand you objecting to something you don't have to use but there you go. why a standalone version, because it's standalone. no need for jack, jack-dssi-host, an easy to use jack capture program, or a fully fledged DSSI host sequencer. just the app, alsa and a keyboard. it lowers the bar for entry into the world of linux audio. not everyone is a dyed in the wool, kernel patching, source compling, terminal using linux wizard. don't need it?, don't use it ;) Cheers Pete. NB: i'm only working on an interface. i'm not the author of the standalone app or the (unreleased) DSSI plugin. From rlrevell at joe-job.com Sun Feb 12 00:47:56 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Sun Feb 12 00:48:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: <1139722443.14309.122.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> <1139722443.14309.122.camel@moon> Message-ID: <1139723277.19342.217.camel@mindpipe> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 05:34 +0000, peter wrote: > Okies. We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee, we don't take our trips on LSD... From loki.davison at gmail.com Sun Feb 12 01:10:33 2006 From: loki.davison at gmail.com (Loki Davison) Date: Sun Feb 12 01:10:37 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: <1139723277.19342.217.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> <1139722443.14309.122.camel@moon> <1139723277.19342.217.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: On 2/12/06, Lee Revell wrote: > On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 05:34 +0000, peter wrote: > > Okies. > > We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee, we don't take our trips on LSD... > > LOL! ;-) Right quote at the right time! From rlrevell at joe-job.com Sun Feb 12 01:14:02 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Sun Feb 12 01:14:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> <1139722443.14309.122.camel@moon> <1139723277.19342.217.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1139724842.19342.228.camel@mindpipe> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 17:10 +1100, Loki Davison wrote: > On 2/12/06, Lee Revell wrote: > > On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 05:34 +0000, peter wrote: > > > Okies. > > > > We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee, we don't take our trips on LSD... > > > > > > LOL! ;-) Right quote at the right time! > Thanks I'm glad someone got it. I found this really great article: http://www.anti.com/press.php?id=14&pid=345 It has some choice quotes: "Prior to September 11, the U.S. was the last place without M-16s in the street, and now we'll join the rest." Lee From chris.cannam at ferventsoftware.com Sun Feb 12 03:51:01 2006 From: chris.cannam at ferventsoftware.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Sun Feb 12 03:53:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues Message-ID: <262885337-1139734415-cardhu_blackberry.rim.net-967-@engine53.bwc.produk.on.blackberry> Loki Davison: > What is wrong with just using jack-dssi-host? If > you want a standalone version, you can just have a > script, jack-dssi-host myplugin called myplugin for > people to run. You don't even need that - just create a symbolic link from myplugin to jack-dssi-host. Chris From luisgarrido at users.sourceforge.net Sun Feb 12 05:05:30 2006 From: luisgarrido at users.sourceforge.net (Luis Garrido) Date: Sun Feb 12 05:05:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Programming Synth Knobs? [OT] UI issues In-Reply-To: <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <1139718486.14309.70.camel@moon> Message-ID: > (i prefer to offer the choice myself. pleases most people at the expense > of minor bloat). > I for one agree wholeheartedly. It is all about choices. Good job! From cuse at users.sourceforge.net Sun Feb 12 08:21:59 2006 From: cuse at users.sourceforge.net (Christian Schoenebeck) Date: Sun Feb 12 08:26:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> Message-ID: <200602121422.00438.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2006 04:24 schrieb peter: > For example, this shot shows a work in progress interface for a DSSI > synth plugin. I rendered the knobs in blender with an alpha channel to > get translucent shadows. The widget uses generic gtk functions to > render each frame over the background as the knob is turned. > It looks pretty nice in action, even if it's an eye candy overdose > for some tastes. > (if you dispense with the alpha and transparency, it's naturally faster) > http://www.zenadsl6252.zen.co.uk/purgatory.png Ok, so the knobs where rendered with Blender. Whatabout the rest? It's been a while since the last time I used Blender. I was a bit disappointed that I had to find workarounds for so many things which were not (directly) supported, like rendering glass material for example. Since then I "emulated" 3D pix with a vector graphic drawing tool like Inkscape. Which sometimes brings you faster to get what you want and sometimes not. But hey, doesn't Qt4 finally support .svg rendering? Aliasing free scaling of skins / themes, isn't that cool? CU Christian From Cedric.Roux at eurecom.fr Sun Feb 12 09:40:13 2006 From: Cedric.Roux at eurecom.fr (Cedric Roux) Date: Sun Feb 12 09:40:19 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] sverb 0.90 Message-ID: Dear Linux audio people, sverb 0.90 is out at: http://sed.free.fr/sverb sverb is an order 15 cfdn reverb. Changes: More presets were added. If someone wants to contribute a ladspa support, it's welcome. We could have one effect for each preset (with names like "short reverb 1", "huge reverb"). Then, for each preset, we can control the reverb with two parameters (t60(0) and t60(pi)), which would make a nice and tiny GUI. (Maybe also add a dry/wet control.) We also need to handle stereo, with a basic decorrelation for example (different delays for left and right channel). Since sverb has three internal operating modes (float, int, asm), I think three .so would be nice. For the asm and int libraries, we could add a third control for the bit resolution (or leave it to a default, currently 14, but which could be set at compile time why not). Before going to 1.0, I need some feedback about the quality of the various reverbs (I know that big 2 is not that good). Also, if someone knows how to define good parameters (by hand or algorithmically) for the delay lines, help is very welcome. Take care of yourself, Cedric. From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Sun Feb 12 18:56:30 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Sun Feb 12 18:56:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Programming Synth Knobs? In-Reply-To: <200602121422.00438.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> References: <20060211022900.5445787f.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> <1139714698.14309.24.camel@moon> <200602121422.00438.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <1139788590.8434.133.camel@dsl-62-3-104-34.zen.co.uk> On Sun, 2006-02-12 at 14:21 +0100, Christian Schoenebeck wrote: > Ok, so the knobs where rendered with Blender. Whatabout the rest? i've been using blender, inkscape and the gimp. (BIG? =) the knobs and a basic button in blender, everything else in the gimp and inkscape (mainly the gimp) > It's been a while since the last time I used Blender. I was a bit disappointed > that I had to find workarounds for so many things which were not (directly) > supported, like rendering glass material for example. This could still be the case but I'm largely ignorant of blender outside of basic modelling and animation. > Since then I "emulated" 3D pix with a vector graphic drawing tool like > Inkscape. Which sometimes brings you faster to get what you want and > sometimes not. yeah, i hear that. true 3D work often looks a bit.. _dead_ somehow too. i wanted a tactile knob for this UI though, and blender did the job well enough. (i don't think you could create a comparable knob with a vector or 2d tool) but for the rest, vector and 2d pixel work is easier and perhaps even the better option. > But hey, doesn't Qt4 finally support .svg rendering? Aliasing > free scaling of skins / themes, isn't that cool? sure is. although svg doesn't work well for low res detail for the same reason that blender doesn't. which is why i used the gimp's sharpen tool on the knobs and touched up the keyboard. If you need HQ scalability then svg is the way to go but i'd expect anything based on svg to be less detailed and more expensive. neither are necessarily bad and creative application can help a lot but it's suitability depends on your requirements. the fact that i'm crap at vector GFX meant that i didn't really consider using it much either ;) so.. i Cheers, Pete. -- ====================== paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad kickback@users.sourceforge.net ====================== From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sun Feb 12 23:46:08 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Sun Feb 12 23:46:26 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ Das_Watchdog ============ ABOUT ----- Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 However, this one has some improvements: 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it works with 2.6...) 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). INSTALLING ---------- make cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local reboot REQUIREMENTS ------------ tcl/tk. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tk_(computing)) Jack_capture ============ ABOUT ----- jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever sound is going out to your speakers into a file. This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no one made. So here it is. CHANGES ------- 0.2.2 -> 0.2.3: *Added -z argument that choose number of leading zeros. *Various changes. From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sun Feb 12 23:46:08 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 13 00:07:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ Das_Watchdog ============ ABOUT ----- Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 However, this one has some improvements: 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it works with 2.6...) 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). INSTALLING ---------- make cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local reboot REQUIREMENTS ------------ tcl/tk. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tk_(computing)) Jack_capture ============ ABOUT ----- jack_capture is a small simple program to capture whatever sound is going out to your speakers into a file. This is the program I always wanted to have for jack, but no one made. So here it is. CHANGES ------- 0.2.2 -> 0.2.3: *Added -z argument that choose number of leading zeros. *Various changes. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From mista.tapas at gmx.net Mon Feb 13 07:22:21 2006 From: mista.tapas at gmx.net (Florian Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 13 07:22:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) "Kjetil S. Matheussen" wrote: > Das_Watchdog > ============ > > ABOUT > ----- > Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the > rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: > http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 Hehe, why shamefully? This is open source, baby. So i'm glad there's some alternative to my messy code ;) And btw: the two programs are still a bit different. rt_watchdog is a daemon. I have wondered about how to make it known to the user that it has kicked in. The only solution i found was to write into the logs. Opening an xwindow is an interesting solution. Does linux maybe even have a standardized way for this kinda stuff? > However, this one has some improvements: > > 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it > works with 2.6...) > 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run > non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. > 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you > whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). > > > INSTALLING > ---------- > make > cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ > echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. > reboot Also i wonder: Is it safe to simply use a static int as "event counter"? Might this not fail on SMP boxes? I think i make a similar mistake by using a volatile int (not as a counter, just as a exit state indicator) instead. Any gurus care to comment? Flo -- Palimm Palimm! http://tapas.affenbande.org From mista.tapas at gmx.net Mon Feb 13 07:22:21 2006 From: mista.tapas at gmx.net (Florian Schmidt) Date: Mon Feb 13 07:51:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) "Kjetil S. Matheussen" wrote: > Das_Watchdog > ============ > > ABOUT > ----- > Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the > rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: > http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 Hehe, why shamefully? This is open source, baby. So i'm glad there's some alternative to my messy code ;) And btw: the two programs are still a bit different. rt_watchdog is a daemon. I have wondered about how to make it known to the user that it has kicked in. The only solution i found was to write into the logs. Opening an xwindow is an interesting solution. Does linux maybe even have a standardized way for this kinda stuff? > However, this one has some improvements: > > 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it > works with 2.6...) > 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run > non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. > 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you > whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). > > > INSTALLING > ---------- > make > cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ > echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. > reboot Also i wonder: Is it safe to simply use a static int as "event counter"? Might this not fail on SMP boxes? I think i make a similar mistake by using a volatile int (not as a counter, just as a exit state indicator) instead. Any gurus care to comment? Flo -- Palimm Palimm! http://tapas.affenbande.org ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From kjetil at ccrma.Stanford.EDU Mon Feb 13 15:05:55 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Kjetil Svalastog Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 13 15:06:33 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> References: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Florian Schmidt wrote: > On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) > "Kjetil S. Matheussen" wrote: > >> Das_Watchdog >> ============ >> >> ABOUT >> ----- >> Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the >> rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: >> http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 > > Hehe, why shamefully? This is open source, baby. So i'm glad there's > some alternative to my messy code ;) And btw: the two programs are still > a bit different. rt_watchdog is a daemon. I have wondered about how to > make it known to the user that it has kicked in. The only solution i > found was to write into the logs. Opening an xwindow is an interesting > solution. Does linux maybe even have a standardized way for this kinda > stuff? > Don't know. It should. Actually, I did not try the program very hard before releasing, so starting the program outside X won't start the program. X just refuse connection... I eventually found a work-around though, but it involves setting up password-less ssh connection for root (secure, but its a bit work to set up), and let an X-program run "xhost local:root" after X has started. Not very nice, but it works. >> However, this one has some improvements: >> >> 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it >> works with 2.6...) >> 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run >> non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. >> 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you >> whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). >> >> >> INSTALLING >> ---------- >> make >> cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ >> echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local > > This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. > Well, this was just an example. /etc/rc.sysinit can also be used. >> reboot > > Also i wonder: Is it safe to simply use a static int as "event counter"? Yes. > Might this not fail on SMP boxes? > Nope, its safe. One thread increases the variable, and another check that it has been increased. If that fails, something is wrong with the machine. From kjetil at ccrma.Stanford.EDU Mon Feb 13 15:05:55 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Kjetil Svalastog Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 13 15:36:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> References: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2006, Florian Schmidt wrote: > On Sun, 12 Feb 2006 20:46:08 -0800 (PST) > "Kjetil S. Matheussen" wrote: > >> Das_Watchdog >> ============ >> >> ABOUT >> ----- >> Das_Watchdog is a program heavily and shamefully inspired by the >> rt_watchdog program made by Florian Schmidt: >> http://tapas.affenbande.org/?page_id=38 > > Hehe, why shamefully? This is open source, baby. So i'm glad there's > some alternative to my messy code ;) And btw: the two programs are still > a bit different. rt_watchdog is a daemon. I have wondered about how to > make it known to the user that it has kicked in. The only solution i > found was to write into the logs. Opening an xwindow is an interesting > solution. Does linux maybe even have a standardized way for this kinda > stuff? > Don't know. It should. Actually, I did not try the program very hard before releasing, so starting the program outside X won't start the program. X just refuse connection... I eventually found a work-around though, but it involves setting up password-less ssh connection for root (secure, but its a bit work to set up), and let an X-program run "xhost local:root" after X has started. Not very nice, but it works. >> However, this one has some improvements: >> >> 1. It works with 2.4 kernels as well as 2.6. (well, at least I think it >> works with 2.6...) >> 2. Instead of permanently setting all realtime processes to run >> non-realtime, das_watchdog only sets them temporary. >> 3. When the watchdog kicks in, an X window should pop up that tells you >> whats happening. (just close it after reading the message). >> >> >> INSTALLING >> ---------- >> make >> cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ >> echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local > > This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. > Well, this was just an example. /etc/rc.sysinit can also be used. >> reboot > > Also i wonder: Is it safe to simply use a static int as "event counter"? Yes. > Might this not fail on SMP boxes? > Nope, its safe. One thread increases the variable, and another check that it has been increased. If that fails, something is wrong with the machine. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From julien at c-lab.de Mon Feb 13 15:55:49 2006 From: julien at c-lab.de (Julien Claassen) Date: Mon Feb 13 15:56:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack clients zombified Message-ID: Hi! I have a problem with the new 2.6 kernels (namely 2.6.13 2.6.15.2 - didn't try 2.6.14). I'm running 2.6.11.8 now and everything works fine. But with the other kernels mplayer always tells me after a while, that jack client_thread is zombified. I've no idea what to do about it. I compiled jack exactly for that kernel (ALSA) and downloaded the latest CVS (0.100.9), but still no go. With my 2.6.11.8 the jack-cvs runs fine, without complaint. Any ideas? Where to start looking for the problem? What to test? Kindest regards Julien -------- Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 13 16:11:02 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 13 16:11:10 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack clients zombified In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1139865063.3202.71.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-13 at 21:55 +0100, Julien Claassen wrote: > Hi! > I have a problem with the new 2.6 kernels (namely 2.6.13 2.6.15.2 - didn't > try 2.6.14). I'm running 2.6.11.8 now and everything works fine. But with the > other kernels mplayer always tells me after a while, that jack client_thread > is zombified. I've no idea what to do about it. I compiled jack exactly for > that kernel (ALSA) and downloaded the latest CVS (0.100.9), but still no go. > With my 2.6.11.8 the jack-cvs runs fine, without complaint. > Any ideas? Where to start looking for the problem? What to test? This sounds like a driver specific problem. When you change kernels you are updating alsa-lib to the same version right? What sound hardware do you use? How does it work if you stick with kernel 2.6.11.8 but install the latest ALSA (1.0.11-rc3)? Lee From ico.bukvic at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 20:08:37 2006 From: ico.bukvic at gmail.com (Ivica Ico Bukvic) Date: Mon Feb 13 20:09:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] RE: [linux-audio-user] LAD site, linuxdj.com needs a new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c63103$307402d0$3402a8c0@64BitBadass> Greetings all, Please pardon me for reopening an issue that may have been already addressed, especially considering that for all intents and purposes I may have appeared to have been very inactive on these lists lately. FWIW, I have been lurking around, but amidst moving and starting a new job, time has been truly a precious commodity. But I digress... It appears to me that there were at least a few members of the LAD/LAU list who have expressed interest in having LAD site somehow integrated in the Linuxaudio.org. I believe that this would be a very encouraging step towards consolidating online LA resources into one site which would IMHO ultimately make LA users' lives a lot easier as well as make the overall LA scene look more professional to the outsiders/potential adopters. I see this kind of an idea as a first step towards a much more demanding goal--integration of other online resources, i.e. Dave's LA software page. I could see this integration happening via a single Wiki page that would contain detailed info/screenshots/documentation/mailing-list and other pertinent info for every LA software available out there. Naturally, linking these lists is also a possibility, yet the very thought of having one place with unified appearance that would provide all the necessary info, including documentation, application-specific mailing lists etc. seems IMHO truly inspiring. Such a project obviously bears a huge overhead. I can also see devs objecting to the redundancy of information that may be already available on their software's dedicated website. The solution to both problems would be asking devs and/or their project maintainers/helpers to assist with the generation of their software's Wiki page which should adhere to certain predetermined standards and then also providing a link to their original project's page. Yes, there would be some redundancy, but a vast number of projects could greatly benefit from such a consolidation, including one of the most important, yet often neglected aspects--proper documentation. For this reason, I would like to use this opportunity to possibly elicit a discussion on this matter and hopefully get the ball rolling :-). Best wishes, Ico > -----Original Message----- > From: linux-audio-user-bounces@music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio- > user-bounces@music.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of laulist@mondoseo.com > Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 7:01 AM > To: A list for linux audio users > Subject: RE: [linux-audio-user] LAD site, linuxdj.com needs a new home > > > Sounds sensible to me! > > Mick > > On Sun, 5 Feb 2006, Pete Bessman wrote: > > > On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 23:31 -0500, Ivica Ico Bukvic wrote: > >> Just a thought, but I was thinking that we could merge the initiatives > >> between the linuxaudio.org and the current linux-audio-dev site. > Obviously, > >> provided that such a move is something that the members of the LAD > would not > >> object to :-). > > > > votes++; > > > > > > -- From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Mon Feb 13 20:11:11 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 13 20:11:33 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.1.0 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ INSTALLING ---------- make cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog >/dev/null &' >>/etc/rc.sysinit reboot USAGE ----- Whenever a program locks up the machine, the watchdog temporarily sets all realtime process to non-realtime for 8 seconds. You will get an xmessage window up on the screen whenever that happens. To test it, run the attached program "test_rt" (as root on 2.4), which immediatley freezes your machine. However, a window should pop up after about 5-6 seconds telling you that the watchdog set the process to non-realtime. CHANGES ------- 0.0.1->0.1.0 * Properly set the DISPLAY and XAUTHORITY environment variables in various ways to make sure the message is really shown. (It really works now!) * Use xmessage instead of wish. (much nicer) ACKNOWLEDGEMENT --------------- The program is mentally based on Florian Schmidts program rt_watcdog. Florian Schmidt also wrote the included test_rt program. From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Mon Feb 13 20:11:11 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 13 20:36:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.1.0 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ INSTALLING ---------- make cp das_watchdog /usr/local/sbin/ echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog >/dev/null &' >>/etc/rc.sysinit reboot USAGE ----- Whenever a program locks up the machine, the watchdog temporarily sets all realtime process to non-realtime for 8 seconds. You will get an xmessage window up on the screen whenever that happens. To test it, run the attached program "test_rt" (as root on 2.4), which immediatley freezes your machine. However, a window should pop up after about 5-6 seconds telling you that the watchdog set the process to non-realtime. CHANGES ------- 0.0.1->0.1.0 * Properly set the DISPLAY and XAUTHORITY environment variables in various ways to make sure the message is really shown. (It really works now!) * Use xmessage instead of wish. (much nicer) ACKNOWLEDGEMENT --------------- The program is mentally based on Florian Schmidts program rt_watcdog. Florian Schmidt also wrote the included test_rt program. ------------------------------------------------------- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Do you grep through log files for problems? Stop! Download the new AJAX search engine that makes searching your log files as easy as surfing the web. DOWNLOAD SPLUNK! http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=103432&bid=230486&dat=121642 _______________________________________________ Jackit-devel mailing list Jackit-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jackit-devel This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 14 03:43:33 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 14 03:38:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ANNOUNCE: Rosegarden-4 1.2.3 released Message-ID: <200602140843.33854.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> The Rosegarden team are delighted to announce the release of version 1.2.3 of Rosegarden 4, an audio and MIDI sequencer and musical notation editor for Linux. Rosegarden is among the largest and most insanely ambitious Linux music software projects, and is the only Linux application to offer full composition and recording capabilities to musicians who prefer to use classical notation. ? ?http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/ The long-awaited 1.2.3 release of Rosegarden-4 offers a variety of new features, bug fixes and enhancements. ?These include: ?* The main segment canvas has been rewritten and is now faster, more ? ?responsive, more accurate, and marginally prettier than before. ? ?(This work proved much more complex than hoped, and accounts for ? ?much of the time spent since the 1.0 release a year ago.) ?* A new percussion matrix editor has been added. ?MIDI devices can ? ?have user-configurable percussion key maps, stored in the same ? ?device files as bank and program definitions. ?Users are invited to ? ?contribute their own. ?* Multi-track audio recording and simultaneous recording of audio and ? ?MIDI are now supported. ?* A "project packager" has been introduced and integrated, ? ?facilitating the exchange of complete Rosegarden projects including ? ?associated audio data and any other required files. ?* The Lilypond export function has been updated for Lilypond 2.6 and ? ?features a new Preview mode. ?* You can now control Rosegarden's mixer and other twiddly bits using ? ?an external MIDI controller device such as the Behringer BCF2000. ?* Rosegarden is now capable of synchronising to MIDI Time Code in ? ?master and slave modes (thanks to Vince Negri). ?MMC master and ? ?slave are also now supported. ? ? ?* Rosegarden's ALSA MIDI ports can now be connected and controlled ? ?using an external ALSA connection manager such as qjackctl (thanks ? ?to Pedro Lopez-Cabanillas). ?* The default sequencer timer selection should be better behaved than ? ?in 1.0 (eliminating the dreaded "Rosegarden only plays the first ? ?note" problem). ?* Effects plugins can now be applied to groups of audio instruments ? ?at the buss stage. ? ?* Many new icons and improved versions of old icons have been added ? ?(thanks to Vladimir Savic). ?* The build system now uses scons instead of autotools. This release also sees hundreds of bug fixes, including fixes to some long-standing issues with DSSI plugin support, JACK transport synchronisation, and punch-in recording. For more information about Rosegarden and what it can do for you, please see ? ?http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/ Rosegarden is Free Software under the GNU General Public License. From julien at c-lab.de Tue Feb 14 04:58:25 2006 From: julien at c-lab.de (Julien Claassen) Date: Tue Feb 14 04:58:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack clients zombified In-Reply-To: <1139865063.3202.71.camel@mindpipe> References: <1139865063.3202.71.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: Hi Lee! I have a MAudio delta 1010lt. When I used alsa-lib/utils 1.0.10 (which was the newest I could lay my hands on by then), it didn't change anything. And yes, I did update alsa-lib/utils, when I changed the kernel. So do you have any idea, what to do now? Kindest regards Julien -------- Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From jens.andreasen at chello.se Tue Feb 14 14:42:39 2006 From: jens.andreasen at chello.se (Jens M Andreasen) Date: Tue Feb 14 14:43:31 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ANNOUNCE: Rosegarden-4 1.2.3 released In-Reply-To: <200602140843.33854.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <200602140843.33854.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <1139946160.9386.582.camel@c80-216-124-251.cm-upc.chello.se> On Tue, 2006-02-14 at 08:43 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > The Rosegarden team are delighted to announce the release of version > 1.2.3 of Rosegarden 4, an audio and MIDI sequencer and musical > notation editor for Linux. > * You can now control Rosegarden's mixer and other twiddly bits using > an external MIDI controller device such as the Behringer BCF2000. Sweet! Thankyou! -- mvh // Jens M Andreasen From capocasa at gmx.net Wed Feb 15 16:36:13 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Wed Feb 15 16:36:59 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: portmidi app i/o ports In-Reply-To: <49D2D39E-6121-427D-9818-FC0C3AA385FE@defekt.nl> References: <49D2D39E-6121-427D-9818-FC0C3AA385FE@defekt.nl> Message-ID: Hi Jelle, thanks, didn't know RtMIDI was available inedepantly from the STK. Carlo From capocasa at gmx.net Wed Feb 15 20:52:40 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Wed Feb 15 21:00:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard Message-ID: Hi, Announcing Shelljam version 0.0.2. Shelljam is a way of playing electronic music live using standard computer hardware. It is implemented in C++ using fast portable libraries. It is designed to be suitable for live performance and studio work. http://shelljam.sourceforge.net Thanks! Carlo From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Wed Feb 15 21:12:39 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Wed Feb 15 21:13:00 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.1.2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry for all the announcements. I think I got it right now. ;-) I have fixed up the compilation problems, corrected the DISPLAY environment variable, and let both the program and makefile give warning/error if the softirq-timer/0 or ksoftirqd/0 processes aren't set to have highest priority. It might still not work, but at least you get a message about /why/ it doesn't work, and what you can do to fix it. (Running "chrt -f -p 99 `ps -A |grep softirq-timer/0 |awk '{print $1}'`" for all processors (change the "0" in "softirq-timer/0" for each additional processor) is probably a good tip to make it work.) REQUIREMENTS ------------ xmessage (should be a part of X11) libgtop2 (should be a part gnome. No, das_watchdog is not a gnome-program.) CHANGES ------- 0.1.0->0.1.2 * Added check for the ksoftrqd/0 process as well as the softirq-timer/0 process. * Added check for SCHED_OTHER of the timing process as well as priority. * Removed debug-printing. * Added extensive checks both when compiling and when running about the priority of the "softirq-timer/0" process: - ***If "softirq-timer/0" is not set to a very high priority (99), the watchdog most probably will not work.*** - The default priority for softirq-timer/0 seems to be 1. However, for real time work, it must be set higher to get reliable timing. Set it to 99. - If softirq-timer/0 is set to less than 99, das_watchdog will refuse to compile unless you force it to by editing the makefile. When running das_watchdog, it will only give a warning if the priority is set too low. * Changed the DISPLAY environment variable to ":0.0" instead of "localhost:0.0". Seems to work for everyone now. * Switched from libgtop to libgtop2. Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ From tzahm at punkass.com Thu Feb 16 08:13:04 2006 From: tzahm at punkass.com (Sam Roig) Date: Thu Feb 16 08:13:10 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Sam Roig To: Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 13:25:10 +0100 Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard I had to add alsa to the list of libraries in the SConstruct to make it compile. Unfortunately the program locks up my Xsession. It does send midi events when I press the keys of my keyboard though... :::sam::: On 2/16/06, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > Hi, > > Announcing Shelljam version 0.0.2. > > Shelljam is a way of playing electronic music live using standard > computer hardware. It is implemented in C++ using fast portable libraries. > > It is designed to be suitable for live performance and studio work. > > http://shelljam.sourceforge.net > > Thanks! > > Carlo > > > From capocasa at gmx.net Thu Feb 16 11:03:48 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Thu Feb 16 11:04:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sam! Thank you for using Shelljam. This is my first Open Source project and I am very excited about having users! > I had to add alsa to the list of libraries in the SConstruct to make > it compile. Now why could that be... Which operating system are you using? > Unfortunately the program locks up my Xsession. It does > send midi events when I press the keys of my keyboard though... Please see the on-line manual; you're probably talking about the looks-like-a-crash-but-is-safe window. It's a stub for until I get round to coding a proper UI. The program is designed to take full control of the keyboard and mouse so you don't accidentally switch tasks while playing. A key combination is used for quitting that is unlikely to be hit accidentally: Press and hold the ESC key, then press the return key. I'm happy you got it to run! Carlo > > :::sam::: > > On 2/16/06, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > >>Hi, >> >>Announcing Shelljam version 0.0.2. >> >>Shelljam is a way of playing electronic music live using standard >>computer hardware. It is implemented in C++ using fast portable libraries. >> >>It is designed to be suitable for live performance and studio work. >> >>http://shelljam.sourceforge.net >> >>Thanks! >> >>Carlo >> >> >> From tzahm at punkass.com Thu Feb 16 11:37:49 2006 From: tzahm at punkass.com (Sam Roig) Date: Thu Feb 16 11:37:55 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I had to add alsa to the list of libraries in the SConstruct to make > > it compile. > > Now why could that be... Which operating system are you using? Linux on ppc. Portmidi makes use of alsa. It's not surprising that you have to link against it... > > Unfortunately the program locks up my Xsession. It does > > send midi events when I press the keys of my keyboard though... > > Please see the on-line manual; you're probably talking about the > looks-like-a-crash-but-is-safe window. It's a stub for until I get round > to coding a proper UI. The program is designed to take full control of > the keyboard and mouse so you don't accidentally switch tasks while > playing. A key combination is used for quitting that is unlikely to be > hit accidentally: Press and hold the ESC key, then press the return key. You could just print this to standard out and spare the shock to your future users! cheers, -- ::: sam ::: From capocasa at gmx.net Thu Feb 16 11:58:43 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Thu Feb 16 11:59:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Linux on ppc. Portmidi makes use of alsa. It's not surprising that you > have to link against it... Yeah, but all the more surprising that I don't. I'll find out if it compiles for me linking against alsa and if it does I guess I could just put it into SConstruct as a safeguard. Can you specify exact distro with version, compiler with version, and alsa version please? Thank you. > You could just print this to standard out and spare the shock to your > future users! Sorry :) Yeah that's a good idea. Thanks for testing Shelljam! Carlo From ce at christeck.de Thu Feb 16 14:06:42 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Thu Feb 16 14:04:34 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History Message-ID: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> Hi all, sorry for cross posting, but I found the following info very interesting when discussing about USB 1.1 vs. USB 2.0 stuff. Some of us (including me) would like to see a USB 2.0 breakout box which grants more than 2x2 channels while using a standard USB 2.0 protocol. Bruce Wahler politely agreed to spread his info to our lists, so all credits go to Bruce. ce ---------- ---------- Subject: OT -- USB History Date: Donnerstag, 16. Februar 2006 18:12 From: Bruce Wahler To: access-list@ampfea.org Hi All, [Warning: This post has little to do with the Virus TI per se. It might be of interest to some of you, though.] I was involved in the early USB efforts, working for a major PC manufacturer. The 3-tier speed approach of USB is a confusing -- and necessary -- part of the design. Early USB appealed to two groups: 1) manufacturers who wanted to simple, cheap way to untangle the rat's nest of wires that were growing behind computers; and 2) developers who wanted a better, more flexible connection than serial and parallel ports provided. In addition, the creators of USB had this grand vision of "USB everything": kitchen appliances, phones, televisions, you name it. USB attempts to satisfy all of these needs, but the goals of different markets are sometimes at odds with each other. Devices like mice can't afford to add even $1.00-2.00USD of product cost, because their customer base won't accept the price increase. On the other end, there's no such a thing as "too fast" for disk drives and networks. USB 1.0 (and 1.1) came out with Low- and Full-Speed specifications to try to bridge the needs of these two camps. Same connectors, same (or similar) cables, same hardware at the host (computer) end; all of the higher-speed functions had to be a layer on top of the basic ones. At the time of USB 1.0 (1995), the practical limit for cables and such was considered to be somewhere in the range of 10-15Mbit/sec. This wasn't a PHYSICAL limitation; it was governed by the cost of hardware (cables, connectors, ICs, etc.) compared to the amount of data being sent (<1GB). Unfortunately, USB 1.x took several years to gain acceptance. (PCs had the USB ports back in 1995, but there were no real peripherals nor OS support for 3-4 more years. One of my bosses used to refer to it as the "Useless Serial Bus.") By the USB really took hold (2000? 2004?), there were enough advances in technology and manufacturing to up the speed a great deal. Add to that the need to transfer more data, and the fear that FireWire would eclipse USB, and "Hi-Speed USB" was born. Hi-Speed USB follows the same rules as USB 1.0: faster protocols must work around the limits of slower ones, so nothing becomes truly obsolete. This is why a 12Mbit/sec Virus TI is still "USB 2 compliant." Some important things to know about Hi-Speed USB: 1. The GUARANTEED cable length is shorter (5m vs. 2m). With a quality cable, you might run further, but there's no whining if it doesn't work. This certainly limits the ability to use the Virus TI as both a recording platform and a performance synth at the same time. 2. Raw bandwidth numbers of Hi-Speed USB are deceptive. (This is also true of FireWire.) While the cable and ICs can support 480Mbit/sec., it takes great drivers, proper interrupt selection, and a relatively unused computer to use that bandwidth. Otherwise, it's a game of "hurry-up-and-wait." Sharing USB with slower devices also clouds the picture. 3. USB 2.0 enhancements focused on data storage. There weren't any high-speed audio extensions added. If Access had wanted to use 480Mbit USB audio, they would have had to develop and support it from scratch -- on both the Mac and PC. So, it's not just a case of adding a little product cost; it's a large development and testing challenge, too. Why weren't there audio extensions? Probably because the two "official" audio uses for USB -- Internet phones and digital USB audio -- didn't need them. The first one is fine with 12Mbit/sec, and the second one never really caught on. 4. The USB specifications were mostly written by big companies like Microsoft, IBM, Intel, and Compaq. They sunk a lot of resources into USB, and so their needs took top priority. None of those companies is known for professional audio gear -- they're computer companies, and USB audio was and still is a bit of an afterthought. (Quick: Name me one 'major' US PC manufacturer who sells a true MPC in their standard line? Anyone?) So, why not add the hardware (ICs) now, and write the OS support later? The approach rarely works, IMHO. Even in the computer industry, known for technology advances, hardware that is unused at product launch often remains forever unused. Why? Remember the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" ? Well, updating software or firmware requires breaking that rule. And anyone who's written software will tell you that bugs crop up in the strangest places. While the updates are cool, there's often very little evidence that the efforts resulted in big sales increases. Thus, a small company like Access must be choosy when planning product updates. Regards, -BW -- Bruce Wahler Design Consultant Ashby Solutions? http://consult.ashbysolutions.com 978.386.7389 voice/fax bruce@ashbysolutions.com _______________________________________________ access-list mailing list access-list@ampfea.org http://www.ampfea.org/mailman/listinfo/access-list <--- SUBSCRIBE/UNSUBSCRIBE DETAILS HERE Patches: http://www.ampfea.org/cool/stuff/access-list ------------------------------------------------------- From capocasa at gmx.net Thu Feb 16 14:17:56 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Thu Feb 16 14:18:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] C++ Realtime Threads Message-ID: Hi, I'd like to make my application threaded and one of them realtime. Can someone point me to a tried-and-tested way to do this? Carlo From tzahm at punkass.com Thu Feb 16 14:24:14 2006 From: tzahm at punkass.com (Sam Roig) Date: Thu Feb 16 14:24:19 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.2 MIDI keyboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Can you specify exact distro with version, compiler with version, and > alsa version please? Thank you. gentoo ppc, alsa 1.0.10 -- ::: sam ::: From cuse at users.sourceforge.net Thu Feb 16 14:40:18 2006 From: cuse at users.sourceforge.net (Christian Schoenebeck) Date: Thu Feb 16 14:44:57 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] C++ Realtime Threads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602162040.18891.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Am Donnerstag, 16. Februar 2006 20:17 schrieb Carlo Capocasa: > Hi, > > I'd like to make my application threaded and one of them realtime. Can > someone point me to a tried-and-tested way to do this? Here's the Thread class from LinuxSampler which can obtain RT scheduling as well: http://cvs.linuxsampler.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/linuxsampler/src/common/Thread.h http://cvs.linuxsampler.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/linuxsampler/src/common/Thread.cpp So that class is used for all threads in LinuxSampler. CU Christian From nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU Thu Feb 16 16:32:01 2006 From: nando at ccrma.Stanford.EDU (Fernando Lopez-Lezcano) Date: Thu Feb 16 16:32:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Job opportunity, CCRMA, Stanford University Message-ID: <1140125521.20437.25.camel@cmn3.stanford.edu> Hey, I thought this might be of interest....... For some reason the blurb is, right now, incomplete in the url below (will be fixed asap), so I'm including the whole thing here. -- Fernando The Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics would like to announce a job opening for Systems Administrator/Audio Maintenance Engineer (#009817). Below is the job description. You can apply to this position by visiting the Stanford Jobs Website at: http://jobs.stanford.edu/openings/display.cgi?Job_Req=009817&JFam=NIL&JOBCODE=5017 The Center for Computer Research in Music and Acoustics is a multi-disciplinary facility where composers and researchers work together using computer-based technology both as an artistic medium and as a research tool. The System Admin/Audio Maintenance Engineer?s primary purpose is to assist CCRMA?s technical staff in providing state-of-the-art systems for music production and research in an open-source environment. Assist in managing 40-50 Linux desktops, 10-15 Mac OS machines and the center?s server and network systems. Assist in overseeing audio maintenance in our studios and performance space including commercial DAW systems. Assist with concert sound. Identify needed facility upgrades and assist in planning, implementing and installing, of IP phone system, security system, and network audio , network backbone, servers and system services. Responsible for creating accounts and other day-to-day tasks needed for student, staff faculty and visitor computer accounts. Responsible for researching and procuring technical needs for the Center. Demonstrated technical experience with Linux (preferably rpm-based distributions) and Mac OSX desktops, networks and servers. Interest in maintaining rpm packages such as those included in Planet CCRMA and creating and maintaining a repository of open-source packages, both for Linux and eventually Mac platforms. Demonstrated reliability to work under supervision and within project management goals. experience with highly-technical system administration, ability to solve problems independently. Requires initiative and strong organizational skills, efficient response to e-mail requests and balance general incoming requests while handling multiple projects despite frequent interruptions. Excellent communication skills and ability to provide use-able documentation for end-users. Familiarity with use and function of analog and digital audio equipment. Knowledge of video systems would be a plus. Ability to troubleshoot audio system setups (not board-level electronics) and maintain and install computer-associated audio equipment. Demonstrated ability to build hardware (including soldering skills) or the willingness to learn. Ability to make and repair audio, video, and computer cables. Resumes accepted until March 1, 2006. From clemens at ladisch.de Fri Feb 17 08:11:35 2006 From: clemens at ladisch.de (Clemens Ladisch) Date: Fri Feb 17 08:12:07 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <20060217131135.GB11415@ifiu25.informatik.uni-halle.de> Christoph Eckert wrote: > Some of us (including me) would like to see a USB 2.0 breakout box which > grants more than 2x2 channels while using a standard USB 2.0 protocol. There is the SB Audigy 2 NX with 8+2 channels. (You didn't mention any quality constraints. ;-) Clemens From larsl at users.sourceforge.net Fri Feb 17 08:19:53 2006 From: larsl at users.sourceforge.net (Lars Luthman) Date: Fri Feb 17 08:19:13 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] C++ Realtime Threads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1140182393.8863.0.camel@c213-100-50-8.swipnet.se> On Thu, 2006-02-16 at 20:17 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > I'd like to make my application threaded and one of them realtime. Can > someone point me to a tried-and-tested way to do this? If it's an audio program and it's the audio thread you want to be realtime, have you looked at JACK (http://jackit.sf.net) ? -- Lars Luthman PGP key: http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d00-llu/pgp_key.php Fingerprint: FCA7 C790 19B9 322D EB7A E1B3 4371 4650 04C7 7E2E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/attachments/20060217/e6e22230/attachment-0001.bin From mlang at delysid.org Fri Feb 17 09:31:31 2006 From: mlang at delysid.org (Mario Lang) Date: Fri Feb 17 09:32:02 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] SF_VIRTUAL_IO and something like curl? Message-ID: <87bqx6vyyk.fsf@x2.delysid.org> Hi. Now that libsndfile has virtual IO, did anyone perhaps already write a little libcurl wrapper? The fopen.c example of libcurl is a good base for such a thing. -- CYa, Mario From capocasa at gmx.net Fri Feb 17 12:29:33 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Fri Feb 17 12:30:22 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: C++ Realtime Threads In-Reply-To: <1140182393.8863.0.camel@c213-100-50-8.swipnet.se> References: <1140182393.8863.0.camel@c213-100-50-8.swipnet.se> Message-ID: Hi, thanks for replying, it's a real time MIDI program. Carlo From capocasa at gmx.net Fri Feb 17 12:30:03 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Fri Feb 17 12:40:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: C++ Realtime Threads In-Reply-To: <200602162040.18891.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> References: <200602162040.18891.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: > Here's the Thread class from LinuxSampler which can obtain RT scheduling as > well: Looks pretty good! Thank you. Carlo From cuse at users.sourceforge.net Fri Feb 17 14:57:04 2006 From: cuse at users.sourceforge.net (Christian Schoenebeck) Date: Fri Feb 17 15:09:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: lad design patterns In-Reply-To: <200502052034.17943.schoenebeck@software-engineering.org> References: <20050204185800.GD4214@fliwatut.scifi> <200502052034.17943.schoenebeck@software-engineering.org> Message-ID: <200602172057.04492.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Hi! Is anybody still interested into translating my stuff from German into English? Its 120 pages, mostly about LinuxSampler, but of course also general audio design patterns, rules, etc. If somebody's interested, let me know! CU Christian Am Samstag, 5. Februar 2005 20:34 schrieb Christian Schoenebeck: > Es geschah am Freitag 04 Februar 2005 19:58 als Frank Barknecht schrieb: > > Hallo, > > > > Christian Schoenebeck hat gesagt: // Christian Schoenebeck wrote: > > > I wrote a lot of stuff for university in LaTex. All yet in German > > > though. But I planned to translate and adjust it for a "LinuxSampler > > > Developers Handbook" or something anyway. Or do you read/speak > > > German eventually? > > > > Do you visit the Linux Audio Conference this year in Karlsruhe? Maybe > > there, some joined effort to translate these into English (maybe first > > into Denglish, then real Englich with the help of native speakers) > > could be organized, at least, if you'd agree on using your texts like > > that. > > Ok, I will try to gather something til LAC05. Not everything I have will be > interesting for LADers, but we'll see. > > CU > Christian From ce at christeck.de Fri Feb 17 15:44:04 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Fri Feb 17 15:41:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <20060217131135.GB11415@ifiu25.informatik.uni-halle.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <20060217131135.GB11415@ifiu25.informatik.uni-halle.de> Message-ID: <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> > There is the SB Audigy 2 NX with 8+2 channels. > (You didn't mention any quality constraints. ?;-) hehe :) . I have some synth, most are rackmounts and I have a 28 channel mixer in it (8 Mono, 6 Stereo and 4 simple Stereo ins). Almost all ports are used, I could even have some more. Some day I want to replace this rack by a fast while lightweight audio device which offers a similar amount of ins. OK, I also have rack devices I don't really use often (like my Microwave I) but sometimes I want to have some fun with it :) . So I'd like to see a 20 or 30 ins and 8 outs device instead of 2 ins and 8 outs :) . Best regards ce From steve at k-hornz.de Fri Feb 17 16:08:42 2006 From: steve at k-hornz.de (stefan kersten) Date: Fri Feb 17 16:13:42 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> References: <20060213132221.6c4aa5c1@mango.fruits.de> Message-ID: <20060217210800.GC3629@localdomain> On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 01:22:21PM +0100, Florian Schmidt wrote: > > echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local > > This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. i've attached a simple /etc/init.d script; on debian you can do: # cp das_watchdog /etc/init.d/ # update-rc.d das_watchdog defaults # invoke-rc.d das_watchdog start -------------- next part -------------- #! /bin/sh # # Written by Miquel van Smoorenburg . # Modified for Debian GNU/Linux # by Ian Murdock . # Modified for das_watchdog by PATH=/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin DAEMON=/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog NAME=das_watchdog DESC="Watchdog" test -x $DAEMON || exit 0 set -e case "$1" in start) echo -n "Starting $DESC: $NAME" start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --background --exec $DAEMON echo "." ;; stop) echo -n "Stopping $DESC: $NAME" start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo --exec $DAEMON echo "." ;; restart|reload|force-reload) echo -n "Restarting $DESC: $NAME... " start-stop-daemon --stop --quiet --oknodo --exec $DAEMON start-stop-daemon --start --quiet --background --exec $DAEMON echo "done." ;; *) N=/etc/init.d/$NAME echo "Usage: $N {start|stop|restart|reload|force-reload}" >&2 exit 1 ;; esac exit 0 From rlrevell at joe-job.com Fri Feb 17 18:36:51 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Fri Feb 17 18:36:57 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <20060217131135.GB11415@ifiu25.informatik.uni-halle.de> <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <1140219411.2733.103.camel@mindpipe> On Fri, 2006-02-17 at 21:44 +0100, Christoph Eckert wrote: > So I'd like to see a 20 or 30 ins and 8 outs device instead of 2 ins > and > 8 outs :) . It's called "firewire" From ce at christeck.de Fri Feb 17 18:48:36 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Fri Feb 17 18:46:05 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <1140219411.2733.103.camel@mindpipe> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> <1140219411.2733.103.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> > It's called "firewire" Yep :) . The problem of the freebob project is that it mainly depends on the personal engagement of Daniel Wagner. If he decides to found a family, I fear the project will be relatively dead. And finally even the Edirol FA-101 "only" offers 10 inputs. Best regards ce From rlrevell at joe-job.com Fri Feb 17 18:53:22 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Fri Feb 17 18:53:27 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> <1140219411.2733.103.camel@mindpipe> <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <1140220402.2733.112.camel@mindpipe> On Sat, 2006-02-18 at 00:48 +0100, Christoph Eckert wrote: > > It's called "firewire" > > Yep :) . > > The problem of the freebob project is that it mainly depends on the > personal engagement of Daniel Wagner. If he decides to found a family, > I fear the project will be relatively dead. And finally even the Edirol > FA-101 "only" offers 10 inputs. Sounds like an excellent opportunity for the first vendor of Firewire audio devices to step up and support Linux - 100% market share! Lee From richard.spindler at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 04:06:51 2006 From: richard.spindler at gmail.com (Richard Spindler) Date: Sat Feb 18 04:06:55 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: lad design patterns In-Reply-To: <200602172057.04492.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> References: <20050204185800.GD4214@fliwatut.scifi> <200502052034.17943.schoenebeck@software-engineering.org> <200602172057.04492.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Message-ID: <4af8d6ff0602180106j3a4fa06aq@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/17, Christian Schoenebeck : > Is anybody still interested into translating my stuff from German into > English? Its 120 pages, mostly about LinuxSampler, but of course also general > audio design patterns, rules, etc. > > If somebody's interested, let me know! This sounds interesting, I'd definitly like to read it, and I could help translating it in return. :) I'll be at LAC05 too. -Richard From richard.spindler at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 04:07:56 2006 From: richard.spindler at gmail.com (Richard Spindler) Date: Sat Feb 18 04:08:00 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: lad design patterns In-Reply-To: <4af8d6ff0602180106j3a4fa06aq@mail.gmail.com> References: <20050204185800.GD4214@fliwatut.scifi> <200502052034.17943.schoenebeck@software-engineering.org> <200602172057.04492.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> <4af8d6ff0602180106j3a4fa06aq@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4af8d6ff0602180107j1aff17a1p@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/18, Richard Spindler : > I'll be at LAC05 too. I mean LAC06. -Richard From wagi at monom.org Sat Feb 18 05:36:02 2006 From: wagi at monom.org (Daniel Wagner) Date: Sat Feb 18 05:36:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Fwd: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602172144.04620.ce@christeck.de> <1140219411.2733.103.camel@mindpipe> <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <43F6F892.6030303@monom.org> Christoph Eckert wrote: >> It's called "firewire" >> > > Yep :) . > > The problem of the freebob project is that it mainly depends on the > personal engagement of Daniel Wagner. If he decides to found a family, > I fear the project will be relatively dead. He, you must know more than I do? :) Where is that girlfriend now? Fortunately, Pieter Palmer is also hacking on this project. I still hope that someone helps a bit out with the ALSA part (this is a hint...). > And finally even the Edirol > FA-101 "only" offers 10 inputs. > It is possible to 'stack' devices. You can use two devices for example. They appear as one sound card. cheers, daniel From ce at christeck.de Sat Feb 18 06:22:42 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Sat Feb 18 06:20:11 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <43F6F892.6030303@monom.org> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> <43F6F892.6030303@monom.org> Message-ID: <200602181222.43075.ce@christeck.de> Hi Daniel, > > The problem of the freebob project is that it mainly depends on the > > personal engagement of Daniel Wagner. If he decides to found a > > family, I fear the project will be relatively dead. > > He, you must know more than I do? :) Where is that girlfriend now? Hehe ;-) . Just for clarification: Your work is *much* appreciated, and I'm already lurking around freebob since I've seen your impressive talk at the LAC. For the time being I bought an Edirol UA-25, but a FW device still is on my wishlist :) . > Fortunately, Pieter Palmer is also hacking on this project. I still > hope that someone helps a bit out with the ALSA part (this is a > hint...). I wish I could. Can it be written in docbook ;-) ? > > ?And finally even the Edirol > > FA-101 "only" offers 10 inputs. > > ? > > It is possible to 'stack' devices. You can use two devices for > example. They appear as one sound card. Even in conjunction with JACK? This would be very cool news. Best regards & nice weekend to all. ce From pieterp at joow.be Sat Feb 18 09:09:22 2006 From: pieterp at joow.be (Pieter Palmers) Date: Sat Feb 18 09:09:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: OT -- USB History In-Reply-To: <200602181222.43075.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602180048.36406.ce@christeck.de> <43F6F892.6030303@monom.org> <200602181222.43075.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <43F72A92.7050008@joow.be> Christoph Eckert wrote: >Hi Daniel, > > > > >>>The problem of the freebob project is that it mainly depends on the >>>personal engagement of Daniel Wagner. If he decides to found a >>>family, I fear the project will be relatively dead. >>> >>> I object ;) I think that even when Daniel would stop, the project wouldn't die. And isn't this the main problem with all (starting) open-source projects? >>He, you must know more than I do? :) Where is that girlfriend now? >> >> > >Hehe ;-) . > >Just for clarification: Your work is *much* appreciated, and I'm already >lurking around freebob since I've seen your impressive talk at the LAC. >For the time being I bought an Edirol UA-25, but a FW device still is >on my wishlist :) . > > If I make it to LAC this year, I'll bring along a setup that might even impress you more ;) Freebob works, it works lot better than last year. and it has a lot of new functionallity. I think the current code is very (u)s(t)able, although I don't know what the people actually using it think ;) >>Fortunately, Pieter Palmer is also hacking on this project. I still >>hope that someone helps a bit out with the ALSA part (this is a >>hint...). >> >> > >I wish I could. Can it be written in docbook ;-) ? > > > >>> And finally even the Edirol >>>FA-101 "only" offers 10 inputs. >>> >>> >>> >>It is possible to 'stack' devices. You can use two devices for >>example. They appear as one sound card. >> >> > >Even in conjunction with JACK? This would be very cool news. > > I can confirm that this works. I can confirm that a 18 in / 18 out device composed of two terratec phase88's works ;) At this point only JACK is supported, not ALSA. But I'm planning to implement ALSA support after my skiing trip this week. Greets, Pieter Palmers From ce at christeck.de Sat Feb 18 09:54:06 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Sat Feb 18 09:51:48 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Freebob-devices (was: OT -- USB History) In-Reply-To: <43F72A92.7050008@joow.be> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602181222.43075.ce@christeck.de> <43F72A92.7050008@joow.be> Message-ID: <200602181554.07125.ce@christeck.de> Hi Pieter, > I object ;) OK, you earned a beer due to the fact that I didn't mention you :))) . > I think that even when Daniel would stop, the project wouldn't die. > > And isn't this the main problem with all (starting) open-source > projects? Of course, but freebob is a bit special because when I buy an expensive FA device I really depend on this project. [...] > If I make it to LAC this year, I'll bring along a setup that might > even impress you more ;) I'll be there for sure; join the conference and get a beer for free (see above) ;-))) . > Freebob works, it works lot better than last year. and it has a lot > of new functionallity. > I think the current code is very (u)s(t)able, although I don't know > what the people actually using it think ;) As I'm a hobbyist I can live with some instabilities and workarounds. [...] > I can confirm that this works. I can confirm that a 18 in / 18 out > device composed of two terratec phase88's works ;) The Phase 88 seems to exactly fit my needs, it would be the right companion in my rack. OK, I'll start saving money to get one ;-) . > At this point only JACK is supported, not ALSA. Not a true limitation, because I always use JACK. What about the MIDI ports: I guess I couldn't use it currently (not a true limitation for me)? > But I'm planning to > implement ALSA support after my skiing trip this week. Have fun & enjoy. Thanks for the thoughts & best regards, ce From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sat Feb 18 17:08:08 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Sat Feb 18 17:08:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Jackit-devel] [ANN] das_watchdog 0.0.1 and jack_capture v0.2.3 In-Reply-To: <20060218090659.8367A6A7051@music.columbia.edu> References: <20060218090659.8367A6A7051@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: stefan kersten: > On Mon, Feb 13, 2006 at 01:22:21PM +0100, Florian Schmidt wrote: > > > echo '/usr/local/sbin/das_watchdog & >/dev/null' >>/etc/rc.local > > > > This assumes an initscript style that's not used on all linux systems. > > i've attached a simple /etc/init.d script; on debian you can > do: > > # cp das_watchdog /etc/init.d/ > # update-rc.d das_watchdog defaults > # invoke-rc.d das_watchdog start Thanks! Hope you don't mind that I included your script. A new version (0.2.0) is up. From ico at vt.edu Sat Feb 18 21:51:31 2006 From: ico at vt.edu (ico) Date: Sat Feb 18 21:52:03 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) Message-ID: <4421E9B6@zathras> Hi all, A couple days ago I sent an e-mail on this topic due to some initial positive feedback, yet not much has happened since... (it may very well be that a lot of people are very busy with LAC preparations (-: ). At any rate, please allow me to reiterate what I've mentioned before in hope that this time it may elicit some fruitful discussion on this IMHO very important topic. Best, Ico BEGIN-OLD-MESSAGE It appears to me that there were at least a few members of the LAD/LAU list who have expressed interest in having LAD site somehow integrated in the Linuxaudio.org. I believe that this would be a very encouraging step towards consolidating online LA resources into one site which would IMHO ultimately make LA users' lives a lot easier as well as make the overall LA scene look more professional to the outsiders/potential adopters. I see this kind of an idea as a first step towards a much more demanding goal--integration of other online resources, i.e. Dave's LA software page. I could see this integration happening via a single Wiki page that would contain detailed info/screenshots/documentation/mailing-list and other pertinent info for every LA software available out there. Naturally, linking these lists is also a possibility, yet the very thought of having one place with unified appearance that would provide all the necessary info, including documentation, application-specific mailing lists etc. seems IMHO truly inspiring. Such a project obviously bears a huge overhead. I can also see devs objecting to the redundancy of information that may be already available on their software's dedicated website. The solution to both problems would be asking devs and/or their project maintainers/helpers to assist with the generation of their software's Wiki page which should adhere to certain predetermined standards and then also providing a link to their original project's page. Yes, there would be some redundancy, but a vast number of projects could greatly benefit from such a consolidation, including one of the most important, yet often neglected aspects--proper documentation. For this reason, I would like to use this opportunity to possibly elicit a discussion on this matter and hopefully get the ball rolling :-). END-OLD-MESSAGE From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Sun Feb 19 21:13:25 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Sun Feb 19 21:13:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] No More Specimen Message-ID: <1140401605.16545.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Ladies and Gents, I can hack specimen while working full time. And, I can hack specimen while studying full time. But, and this is empirically verifiable, I can't hack specimen while both working and studying full time. And my situation is not likely to change for another year or so. What this means is that I'm just not cut out to run a project right now, unless I want to put it into maintenance mode. Really, that's where specimen has been for the past six months anyway, and I've been doing a rather piss poor job at that modest role! My efforts are better applied to tasks where smaller chunks of time can go a greater distance. I don't have any regrets --- this was my first real programming project, and I learned a lot. But the truth is that LMMS is more specimen than specimen right now, and it has an active development and user community surrounding it. Plus, I've always been a musician and an artist first, and a programmer second. All told, it's time to throw in the towel on this one. In a way, this is a bummer --- I've put a lot of sweat and tears (literally) into this project over the past couple of years, and it has come an incredible distance. But I'd be a fool to think that I'm better off keeping it afloat than making music and contributing to other projects. And truthfully, it's a huge relief to get this announcement out. A sense of obligation is what kept me from making it sooner, but in retrospect, that's pretty ridiculous. Considering that I'm an "open source, just for fun" guy, and not a "free software, as in freedom" type, it doesn't make a lot of sense to keep going when pain exceeds pleasure. This isn't the end of my open source music development, however. I hope to help take LMMS to the next level, and contribute to other projects that will help make Linux a competitor in the music industry. Things like ardour2, lash, jack-midi, vst, dssi, ladspa et al are the keys to our future in this regard. And I look forward to getting back to hardcore hacking in a few years, when I've got my life settled down and I'm not putting in 80 hours of work and school a week. Take care everybody, and may the funk be with you. -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From julien at c-lab.de Mon Feb 20 04:27:51 2006 From: julien at c-lab.de (Julien Claassen) Date: Mon Feb 20 04:28:13 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] sverb 0.90 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Cedric! Can sverb work without a gui, like a simple command-line utility? I'm blind, yet would like to use this piece of software. It sounds great! Kindest regards Julien -------- Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From Cedric.Roux at eurecom.fr Mon Feb 20 09:43:39 2006 From: Cedric.Roux at eurecom.fr (Cedric Roux) Date: Mon Feb 20 09:43:45 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] sverb 0.90 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Julien, I'll try to work on it. What about a pipe-approach? I don't want to deal with the zillions of audio file formats, so I'll take raw mono input on stdin (float or short, little or big endian) and produce raw data (float or short) on stdout. You could set parameters with zillions of command line arguments (mostly: choose a preset, a t60(0), a t60(pi), a float/int/asm choice of calculatin a bit resolution for the fixed arithmetic, a dry/wet control, a bypass-t60 toggle, controls for input/output formats). Maybe it should handle stereo input and/or output? Algorithm has been implemented with 44.1 KHz resolution but can work with anything (of course the same set of parameters won't give the same reverberation time). What do you think of it? I don't have much time for the moment, but as soon as I get some, I'll do it. Tell me what you absolutely need, so I can provide you with it as soon as I can. (Of course if someone has got some brain's idle, any contribution is welcome.) Take care, C?dric. On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, Julien Claassen wrote: > Hi Cedric! > Can sverb work without a gui, like a simple command-line utility? I'm blind, > yet would like to use this piece of software. It sounds great! > Kindest regards > Julien > > -------- > Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) > > ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== > http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Mon Feb 20 14:55:53 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Mon Feb 20 14:55:58 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? Message-ID: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Well, I'm about to crack open a can of worms, but let me just say that I'm 100% not interested in starting any debates/fights/riots/states-of- emergency. All I'm interested in is hearing where people stand and why --- I don't want to persuade people one way or the other, and I'd like to ask that everyone restrain themselves when feeling the urge to tell someone that they're wrong. I'm doing this because, after having been a part of this community for a while, and a developer for some time, I'm having an "is it all worth it?" moment. I personally like the Linux environment more than Windows and Mac --- I find it to be better suited to a technically inclined person like myself. And with each iteration of the distros and desktop suites, it comes closer to meeting and surpassing the competition in core computer functions. It's already got the server side of things dominated, and when it comes to surfing the web, checking your email, burning cds, listening to music et al, it's definitely a contender. Better in some areas, worse in others, and mostly only suffering because of proprietary technologies that have become standard. But, and this what it's all about, when it comes to my personal reason for living --- music --- I'm forced to admit that on technical merits alone, I have a hard time arguing for Linux. I'm personally a "just for fun" kind of guy. I'm basically from the utilitarian-libertarian school, and while I did try the "free as in freedom" thing for a while, it was a poor fit. I happen to have some very significant qualms with the way "intellectual property" (if RMS was right about anything, it's that this is a poor term for non-rivalrous creative goods) is currently being handled --- there is a huge and easily observable disparity between what the laws say and what people do, and common sense tells you that that probably means the laws are messed up. So, for me, open source and creative commons are a way to sort of skirt the issue, or at least push things in a better direction. Also, there's something just sexy about open source. But for me, that's where the non-technical merits of it stop. What I'm saying is, I think we can all agree that, when an open source solution is technically superior to, or on par with, a proprietary solution, then the open source solution is the way to go. But what about when the proprietary solution is better? If the open source solution is good enough, then it makes sense to use it since it's bound to be cheaper. But if you really need the best tool for the job, then I don't see the justification for using the open source solution. Things obviously change when you're a developer, since you can bring the open source solution up to, or beyond, the level of the proprietary solution. The question, then, is will you get more pleasure out of doing so than pain? That's where I am right now. I really, really want to get an album out --- and I also want it to be really, really good. I want to use the best tools for the job, and in my evaluation, those are proprietary tools. OTOH, with a little work, I think the LMMS + Ardour can actually be the best, or at least good enough. I also happen to enjoy doing open source development, so this wouldn't be a bad path to pursue. But ultimately, I want to get back to making the best music that I can make --- it's for that reason that I think I'm going to finally go back to a dual boot machine for the first time in 6 years, and take a vacation in Windows land. None of this is to say that I'm through with Linux and open source as music making solutions --- far from it. And I'm certainly *not* trying to encourage any body to follow my lead. In fact, I hope people get pissed reading this and double their development efforts :-) It's just that, right now, rolling proprietary sounds more appealing than rolling open. This email is way, way longer than I intended it to be, and for that I apologize. Remember that I'm not looking to stir up any hostilities, I just want to hear where people stand on The Issues and get a sense of the community. I predict that there are people here on a moral mission, and there are people here because they get a chubby out of openness and collaborative development and such. But I don't think I'm going to see anybody who's primary interest is making music --- although I'd love to be proved wrong, and I certainly think that things will be different in the future as the tools get better. So let's hear it! WHAT is your NAME? WHAT is your QUEST? WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From paul at linuxaudiosystems.com Mon Feb 20 15:21:19 2006 From: paul at linuxaudiosystems.com (Paul Davis) Date: Mon Feb 20 15:18:19 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 14:55 -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > So let's hear it! > > WHAT is your NAME? > > WHAT is your QUEST? i can hack ardour part time while i work. i can hack ardour full time while i live the rest of my life. but i know for sure that i definitely can't get into philosophical debates with the recently deceased while i work full time on ardour and live the rest of my life. :) From howard.m.cornell.iii at lmco.com Mon Feb 20 15:17:29 2006 From: howard.m.cornell.iii at lmco.com (Cornell III, Howard M) Date: Mon Feb 20 15:19:39 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? Message-ID: <140F0E67720B194BB90FE31F40D6704404C4A229@emss02m19.us.lmco.com> Sir Robin The Holy Grail The White Album, no, the Dark Side of the Moo....Arggggggh -----Original Message----- From: linux-audio-dev-bounces@music.columbia.edu [mailto:linux-audio-dev-bounces@music.columbia.edu] On Behalf Of Pete Bessman Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 1:56 PM To: LAU Cc: LAD Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? Well, I'm about to crack open a can of worms, but let me just say that I'm 100% not interested in starting any debates/fights/riots/states-of- emergency. All I'm interested in is hearing where people stand and why --- I don't want to persuade people one way or the other, and I'd like to ask that everyone restrain themselves when feeling the urge to tell someone that they're wrong. I'm doing this because, after having been a part of this community for a while, and a developer for some time, I'm having an "is it all worth it?" moment. I personally like the Linux environment more than Windows and Mac --- I find it to be better suited to a technically inclined person like myself. And with each iteration of the distros and desktop suites, it comes closer to meeting and surpassing the competition in core computer functions. It's already got the server side of things dominated, and when it comes to surfing the web, checking your email, burning cds, listening to music et al, it's definitely a contender. Better in some areas, worse in others, and mostly only suffering because of proprietary technologies that have become standard. But, and this what it's all about, when it comes to my personal reason for living --- music --- I'm forced to admit that on technical merits alone, I have a hard time arguing for Linux. I'm personally a "just for fun" kind of guy. I'm basically from the utilitarian-libertarian school, and while I did try the "free as in freedom" thing for a while, it was a poor fit. I happen to have some very significant qualms with the way "intellectual property" (if RMS was right about anything, it's that this is a poor term for non-rivalrous creative goods) is currently being handled --- there is a huge and easily observable disparity between what the laws say and what people do, and common sense tells you that that probably means the laws are messed up. So, for me, open source and creative commons are a way to sort of skirt the issue, or at least push things in a better direction. Also, there's something just sexy about open source. But for me, that's where the non-technical merits of it stop. What I'm saying is, I think we can all agree that, when an open source solution is technically superior to, or on par with, a proprietary solution, then the open source solution is the way to go. But what about when the proprietary solution is better? If the open source solution is good enough, then it makes sense to use it since it's bound to be cheaper. But if you really need the best tool for the job, then I don't see the justification for using the open source solution. Things obviously change when you're a developer, since you can bring the open source solution up to, or beyond, the level of the proprietary solution. The question, then, is will you get more pleasure out of doing so than pain? That's where I am right now. I really, really want to get an album out --- and I also want it to be really, really good. I want to use the best tools for the job, and in my evaluation, those are proprietary tools. OTOH, with a little work, I think the LMMS + Ardour can actually be the best, or at least good enough. I also happen to enjoy doing open source development, so this wouldn't be a bad path to pursue. But ultimately, I want to get back to making the best music that I can make --- it's for that reason that I think I'm going to finally go back to a dual boot machine for the first time in 6 years, and take a vacation in Windows land. None of this is to say that I'm through with Linux and open source as music making solutions --- far from it. And I'm certainly *not* trying to encourage any body to follow my lead. In fact, I hope people get pissed reading this and double their development efforts :-) It's just that, right now, rolling proprietary sounds more appealing than rolling open. This email is way, way longer than I intended it to be, and for that I apologize. Remember that I'm not looking to stir up any hostilities, I just want to hear where people stand on The Issues and get a sense of the community. I predict that there are people here on a moral mission, and there are people here because they get a chubby out of openness and collaborative development and such. But I don't think I'm going to see anybody who's primary interest is making music --- although I'd love to be proved wrong, and I certainly think that things will be different in the future as the tools get better. So let's hear it! WHAT is your NAME? WHAT is your QUEST? WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Mon Feb 20 15:29:07 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Mon Feb 20 15:31:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140467347.6233.22.camel@eviltwin> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 14:55 -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > This email is way, way longer than I intended it to be, and for that I > apologize. Remember that I'm not looking to stir up any hostilities, I > just want to hear where people stand on The Issues and get a sense of > the community. I predict that there are people here on a moral mission, > and there are people here because they get a chubby out of openness and > collaborative development and such. But I don't think I'm going to see > anybody who's primary interest is making music --- although I'd love to > be proved wrong, and I certainly think that things will be different in > the future as the tools get better. > I'm primarily interested in making music and, having seen what's available in Windoze for under $10K, I think that Ardour is a better solution. Let me qualify that though by saying that I am only interested in recording bands (mine and others). I am not interested in soft synths, drum machines, or other computer generated music. For those things there is a possibility that Windoze apps are better, I wouldn't know. For mastering, JAMin does everything that I want or need (blowing my own horn here ;-) I only got in to helping to develop JAMin out of my interest in making music. I just happen to be a programmer so it sort of made sense. > So let's hear it! > > WHAT is your NAME? > See below. > WHAT is your QUEST? > To drop the ring into... Oh, wait, that was the other quest. To write and record some decent music (also, to find the perfect Bushwacker ;-) > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? Jeez, why don't you ask something easy. Dire Straits first album, Gabor Szabo - Macho, Frank Zappa - the white album with the pencil on front (Live at Fillmore), Deep Purple - Machine Head, The Dillards - Live Almost, Dan Hicks and His Hot Licks - Last Train To Hicksville Home of the Happy Feet... -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From ce at christeck.de Mon Feb 20 15:48:25 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Mon Feb 20 15:45:51 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602202148.25631.ce@christeck.de> Hi, being a desktop user, I mainly use Linux for the freedom it grants. The software I use doesn't try to bind me to proprietary file formats, the system doesn't hide things from me (not talking about my own ignorance here ;-) and the collaboration with all the other people around is pure fun. But to be honest, it was never the easiest way. Concerning audio apps, we have seen so many improvements during the last three years that I want to ask you: What are you missing? Three years ago I had to decide: Buy a Mac and install Cubase etc. Why not? I also dream about doing an album one day. But I decided to stay with free software, help improving it in various ways and today I'm glad I did. And yes, I did play a lot with the computer instead of making music. So if Linux still is not enough for your needs, buy a Mac Mini, install the Software you need and use it for making music. Use Linux for all the rest. I think it depends on the music you want to do. Linux is good enough for MIDI sequencing and audio recording, there are some good synths and lots of audio tools, but yes, there are still some tools missing (you know best what I mean :) . > WHAT is your NAME? See sender. > WHAT is your QUEST? Being a good cosmopolitan ;-) . > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? Chick Corea: The mad hatter Azizah Mustafa Zadeh: Dance of fire Best regards ce From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Mon Feb 20 16:01:48 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:02:16 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: Pete Bessman: > > Well, I'm about to crack open a can of worms, but let me just say that > I'm 100% not interested in starting any debates/fights/riots/states-of- > emergency. All I'm interested in is hearing where people stand and why > --- I don't want to persuade people one way or the other, and I'd like > to ask that everyone restrain themselves when feeling the urge to tell > someone that they're wrong. > Well, if you find windows software better suited for your needs, you should definitely go windows. Music is what we work for, right? But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. Please don't support makers of non-open source software. From idragosani at chapelperilous.net Mon Feb 20 16:03:10 2006 From: idragosani at chapelperilous.net (Brett W. McCoy) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:04:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <43FA2E8E.7020806@chapelperilous.net> Pete Bessman wrote: > This email is way, way longer than I intended it to be, and for that I > apologize. Remember that I'm not looking to stir up any hostilities, I > just want to hear where people stand on The Issues and get a sense of > the community. I predict that there are people here on a moral mission, > and there are people here because they get a chubby out of openness and > collaborative development and such. But I don't think I'm going to see > anybody who's primary interest is making music --- although I'd love to > be proved wrong, and I certainly think that things will be different in > the future as the tools get better. I have been using Linux for well over 10 years now, both professionally and 'for fun', in both server environments and desktop environments. It's my OS of choice for most things, including multimedia. I've even produced DVDs with Linux and done 3D animation with Linux, using completely free software. That said, I'm not that political about open source and Linux. I like open source software and the community spirit it engenders... I like looking at the code of the application I am using, trying to figure out how it works, and so on and so on. I like having a choice with window managers and widgets sets. Even when on Windows, I use a lot of open source software -- gaim, emacs, CygWin, Perl, Eclipse, and in fact in my professional work, we use mostly non-proprietary software (even though our primary product is closed source). It helps keep our development costs down -- we recently dumped some old commercial CM software for Subversion, and dropped using Borland JBuilder in favor of Eclipse, and it saved us loads of cash. And there is general agreement that our internal development processes are much smoother and easier to maintain now that we dumped the old software because it wasn't *extensible*. My music studio is a hybrid system. I use Linux for all of my composing/sequencing and recording/mixing. I have a second machine running Windows because there are certain plugins and applications for which there just aren't equivalents (yet) on Linux, and they probably don't run well under Wine or the various VST plugin support on Linux. > So let's hear it! > > WHAT is your NAME? Brett > WHAT is your QUEST? An honest man? > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? What do you mean? African or European? -- Brett McCoy: Programmer by Day, Guitarist by Night http://www.alhazred.com http://www.cassandrasyndrome.com http://www.revelmoon.com From dak at gnu.org Mon Feb 20 16:13:24 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:13:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: (Kjetil S. Matheussen's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2006 13:01:48 -0800 (PST)") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <85irr9pwcr.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> "Kjetil S. Matheussen" writes: > Pete Bessman: >> >> Well, I'm about to crack open a can of worms, but let me just say that >> I'm 100% not interested in starting any debates/fights/riots/states-of- >> emergency. All I'm interested in is hearing where people stand and why >> --- I don't want to persuade people one way or the other, and I'd like >> to ask that everyone restrain themselves when feeling the urge to tell >> someone that they're wrong. >> > > > > Well, if you find windows software better suited for your needs, you > should definitely go windows. Music is what we work for, right? But > please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are > lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you > need. Please don't support makers of non-open source software. That's disingenuous in my book. One should put one's money where one's mouth is and vice versa. I am myself a developer of free software, and I find it plain distasteful how few people are willing to volunteer a dime in return for the freedoms I provide them with. The total amount of donations in dollars for the software in the last few years amounts to less than half of the people subscribed to the Freshmeat announcement list alone, even though the release announcements mention the possibility of donations. The idea of free software is to provide users with freedom, not to starve developers. If you consider software worth using under its license terms and conditions, then you should consider reimbursing the authors with part of the value that the software provides you with. If you don't consider it worth using, then don't use it. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 16:16:04 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:16:12 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 13:01 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are > lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. > Please don't support makers of non-open source software. What?!?!? Are you serious? This is terrible advice. Just because we don't like their business model does not give us the right to steal from them. How can we expect people to abide by the GPL if we don't respect their licensing terms? Stealing proprietary software is exactly as immoral as proprietary vendors ripping off GPL'ed code. Lee From chrhenz at gmx.de Mon Feb 20 16:18:17 2006 From: chrhenz at gmx.de (Christian Henz) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:21:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <20060220211817.GA16375@homer> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 01:01:48PM -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > Well, if you find windows software better suited for your needs, you > should definitely go windows. Music is what we work for, right? > But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are > lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. > Please don't support makers of non-open source software. > Whow, this is by far the single most stupid post I've read in my 4+ years on this mailing list! Way to go, Kjetil! Christian Henz From seablaede at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 16:33:54 2006 From: seablaede at gmail.com (Thomas Vecchione) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:31:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <43FA35C2.40600@gmail.com> > > > Well, if you find windows software better suited for your needs, you should definitely go windows. Music is what we work for, right? > But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. Please don't support makers of non-open source software. Staying out of the debate except for this... NO! One of the main drawing points to those in Audio at the moment to Open Source is that it IS an alternative to EXACTLY this. Why would we want to encourage people to go out and be immoral and not respect things? Not only that but it also gives legitimate uses of P2P a bad name, as if they dont have enough of one already. BitTorrent is a prime example of this. Not only are you screwing the reputation of the Open Source Movement by saying this, you are also screwing people that did pay to develop that software, whether or not we agree with it, and screwing P2P software, and a fair amount of other things, giving fuel to the DRM fire is not the least of which IMO. BAD IDEA. Seablade From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 16:32:39 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:32:58 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <20060220211817.GA16375@homer> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <20060220211817.GA16375@homer> Message-ID: <1140471159.6722.50.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:18 +0100, Christian Henz wrote: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 01:01:48PM -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, if you find windows software better suited for your needs, you > > should definitely go windows. Music is what we work for, right? > > But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are > > lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. > > Please don't support makers of non-open source software. > > > > Whow, this is by far the single most stupid post I've read in > my 4+ years on this mailing list! Way to go, Kjetil! I think we just got trolled. Lee From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Mon Feb 20 16:36:41 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:37:05 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] E-Radium V0.61e and Das_Watchdog V0.2.0 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ ***************************************************** E-radium -------- E-radium is Radium and a special version of E-UAE (with support for realtime scheduling and alsa midi). Radium is a unique type of music event editor made to be efficient and give all sorts of possibilities. The user interface is inspired by trackers, but Radium is generally a lot more versatile and can be used for all kind of genres. http://www.notam02.no/radium/ Warning: E-radium does not seem to work on 64bit machines. :-( Changes 0.61d->0.61e -------------------- -Run XInitThreads(). Should fix e-radium in case you got xlib async errors. (Fix for SMP machines) **************************************************** Das_Watchdog ------------ Das_Watchdog is a general watchdog for the linux operating system that should be run in the background at all times to ensure a realtime process won't hang the machine. Changes 0.1.2->0.2.0 --------------------- * Don't do anything if no process priorities are changed, when watchdogging. * Added the --force option, that sets the priority of all timer processes to FIFO/99. * Added the das_watchdog /etc/init.d script provided by Stefan Kersten. (das_watchdog.rc) * Added the --verbose option. * Check that its the same process when setting back old priority. * Don't set back to old priority if the priority has been changed in the mean time. * Added options for setting increasetime, checktime and waittime. (--increasetime, --checktime and --waittime) * Don't change the priority of any timer process when watchdogging. * Smaller code cleanups. From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 16:43:51 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 20 16:44:10 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> Message-ID: <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:28 +0100, Bj?rn Lindstr?m wrote: > In so far as moral can be applied here, restricting people from > tinkering with the software they run is immoral, since it diminishes > their freedom. By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes people's freedom to roam around my house. Lee From dak at gnu.org Mon Feb 20 17:01:10 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:01:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> (Lee Revell's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2006 16:43:51 -0500") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Lee Revell writes: > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:28 +0100, Bj?rn Lindstr?m wrote: >> In so far as moral can be applied here, restricting people from >> tinkering with the software they run is immoral, since it diminishes >> their freedom. > > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes > people's freedom to roam around my house. Those people have not paid for access to your house. Purchasers of proprietary software _have_ paid for access to the software. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 17:08:51 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:09:03 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <87ek1xvgsb.fsf@killalla.dreaming> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <87ek1xvgsb.fsf@killalla.dreaming> Message-ID: <1140473331.6722.67.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:53 +0100, Bj?rn Lindstr?m wrote: > Lee Revell : > > > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:28 +0100, Bj?rn Lindstr?m wrote: > >> In so far as moral can be applied here, restricting people from > >> tinkering with the software they run is immoral, since it diminishes > >> their freedom. > > > > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes > > people's freedom to roam around my house. > > No. > > It is the of refusing others their freedom when it would have no cost > to you is what is immoral. > Depending on how much more advanced your application is than that of your competition, open sourcing an app could have huge costs. > (I'm not counting the hypothetical cost of lost sales of copyright > licenses, which as I pointed out are an arbitrary monopoly, not a > moral right.) > > From fons.adriaensen at skynet.be Mon Feb 20 17:16:50 2006 From: fons.adriaensen at skynet.be (fons adriaensen) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:11:03 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:01:10PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > Lee Revell writes: > > > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes > > people's freedom to roam around my house. > > Those people have not paid for access to your house. Purchasers of > proprietary software _have_ paid for access to the software. They have paid for a license to use it, and for nothing else. -- FA From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 17:16:29 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 20 17:16:37 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140473789.6722.77.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:01 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes > > people's freedom to roam around my house. > > Those people have not paid for access to your house. Purchasers of > proprietary software _have_ paid for access to the software. They have paid for access to the software under the terms of the license - if they didn't like it they could have used a different program. Lee From dak at gnu.org Mon Feb 20 17:41:43 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Mon Feb 20 18:18:24 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> (fons adriaensen's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:16:50 +0100") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> Message-ID: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> fons adriaensen writes: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:01:10PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >> Lee Revell writes: >> >> > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes >> > people's freedom to roam around my house. >> >> Those people have not paid for access to your house. Purchasers of >> proprietary software _have_ paid for access to the software. > > They have paid for a license to use it, and for nothing else. Well, then they might have some expectation to be able to use it, no? Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software is crippled in its usefulness. When buying electronic appliances, at one time you could rely on the schematics being in the inside. That meant you could make full use of the appliance, adapt it to different problems (using a radio as a guitar amplifier), repair it and keep it in working order, and you could take it to service men of your choice to have it adapted or fixed. That's basically what workmanship is about: offering the best to the customer to make use of. Just 20 years ago, it was customary to provide computer purchasers or service people with schematics, BIOS listings and similar stuff (partly on request and for payment). Now it is trade secret this, closed source that, not for your eyes this. It is annoying. If I want a Porsche engine in a VW bug, I can buy the parts and all relevant service manuals and plans, and put a mechanic to work. If I want Excel running on GNU/Linux, I can just shoot myself. I am not paying for such crippled software. If that means that I have to do with less sophisticated free software, so be it. It is a price to pay, but at least it keeps me in control and power and responsibility. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From fons.adriaensen at skynet.be Mon Feb 20 18:49:53 2006 From: fons.adriaensen at skynet.be (fons adriaensen) Date: Mon Feb 20 18:43:15 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <20060220234953.GG4984@linux-1> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:41:43PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > > They have paid for a license to use it, and for nothing else. > > Well, then they might have some expectation to be able to use it, no? > Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or > applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software > is crippled in its usefulness. > > When buying electronic appliances, at one time you could rely on the > schematics being in the inside. That meant you could make full use of > the appliance, adapt it to different problems (using a radio as a > guitar amplifier), repair it and keep it in working order, and you > could take it to service men of your choice to have it adapted or > fixed. > > That's basically what workmanship is about: offering the best to the > customer to make use of. Quite true. > Just 20 years ago, it was customary to provide computer purchasers or > service people with schematics, BIOS listings and similar stuff > (partly on request and for payment). Now it is trade secret this, > closed source that, not for your eyes this. All true, and I feel bad about this evolution myself, but please read what I wrote. You did not _pay_ for source code, portability to other system, schematics, or whatever, and that was very clear from the start, so don't claim you did. And if it's a bad deal, just don't buy it. -- FA From ce at christeck.de Mon Feb 20 19:05:23 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Mon Feb 20 19:02:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <200602210105.23846.ce@christeck.de> > Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or > applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software > is crippled in its usefulness. True; buy a licence which includes sources and the right to change it. That's it. > When buying electronic appliances, at one time you could rely on the > schematics being in the inside. ?That meant you could make full use > of the appliance, adapt it to different problems (using a radio as a > guitar amplifier), repair it and keep it in working order, and you > could take it to service men of your choice to have it adapted or > fixed. But you have to pay an extra fee to get the circuit plans. So if you want to get the source of proprietary software, you have to pay for it, too. At least theoretically. Best regards ce From david at olofson.net Mon Feb 20 18:59:02 2006 From: david at olofson.net (David Olofson) Date: Mon Feb 20 19:03:11 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <200602210059.02236.david@olofson.net> On Monday 20 February 2006 23:41, David Kastrup wrote: [...] > It is annoying. If I want a Porsche engine in a VW bug, I can buy > the parts and all relevant service manuals and plans, and put a > mechanic to work. Actually, you might run into trouble with the electronics! Some engine management systems just won't run unless they get basically the whole instrumentation of the car with them. :-( But fortunately, as far as engines are concerned, you can just ditch the "black box" stuff and use something serious, open and infinitely configurable, like VEMS: http://www.vems-group.org/ //David Olofson - Programmer, Composer, Open Source Advocate .------- http://olofson.net - Games, SDL examples -------. | http://zeespace.net - 2.5D rendering engine | | http://audiality.org - Music/audio engine | | http://eel.olofson.net - Real time scripting | '-- http://www.reologica.se - Rheology instrumentation --' From most at museresearch.com Mon Feb 20 19:33:08 2006 From: most at museresearch.com (Michael Ost) Date: Mon Feb 20 19:34:31 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Guitar Rig 2 for Linux Message-ID: <1140481988.4408.72.camel@bluefred> We are interested in getting the new Guitar Rig 2 USB foot controller supported in Linux/Wine. It's described here: http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=guitarrig2_us I assume from looking at it, that a USB driver would be required and then perhaps some Wine tweaks to let the plugin open the USB driver. Anyone interested in taking this on? We are hoping to do this as a trade --- like you do this work and get a Receptor and/or some VST plugins for your time. BTW, we also have a job opening, posted here: http://www.craigslist.org/pen/sof/132110028.html Thanks ... mo =================================== Michael Ost, Software Architect Muse Research, Inc. most@museresearch.com From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Mon Feb 20 23:15:48 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Mon Feb 20 23:16:05 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 15:21:19 -0500, "Paul Davis" said: > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 14:55 -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > > So let's hear it! > > > > WHAT is your NAME? > > > > WHAT is your QUEST? > > i can hack ardour part time while i work. i can hack ardour full > time while i live the rest of my life. but i know for sure that > i definitely can't get into philosophical debates with the > recently deceased while i work full time on ardour and live the > rest of my life. Fool --- I'll eat your brains! All seriousness aside, I'd like to address the myriad responses I've received. First, I want to reiterate that I don't want to get into a war about morals. Moral philosophy is an old enterprise, and it's rate of progress in recent centuries has not been great (to quote Friedman). I'm a libertarian, I believe in the right to contract, so I believe in the right of a software producer to require a user to agree to an EULA or walk. I don't think this is really at all in conflict with my belief that our current copyright law is a little whack --- I think our contract law is just fine, and that's where I see the meat of the validity and enforceability of proprietary software licenses as coming from. Now, naturally, you might disagree --- and obviously, plenty of people here do. That's not the discussion I wanted to have, though! Something of that depth is better served by a blog post than a flamewar here, I think. That said, I hate to say it, but I think I'm going to go ahead and stir up some more controversy. I agree that, in many instances, linux audio probably meets and exceeds the "good enough" test --- that is, it either gets the job done flawlessly, or can be made to done so with a little work. Straight recording, mixing, and mastering are probably at this level, and I'd wager you can produce pro-quality stuff with relative ease using current tools in this realm. However, as far as synthesis, sampling, sequencing, and other assorted electronica, I don't think it really cuts the mustard --- at least for the cutting edge. Sure, it can do scene music and minimalism and abstract-avant- garde stuff. But take a listen to the latest from, say, Delerium, or Front Line Assembly --- how in the world are you going to pull that off with Hydrogen, ZynAdd, Seq24, rosegarden, muse, jack-rack, and LinuxSampler? Guitars and drums haven't changed in a while, nor has recording. But cutting-edge electronic music is defined by running on cutting-edge electronic technology. Go browse through musiciansfriend.com and take a look at all the various proprietary offerings in this department. Heck, just look at Project5 or FL studio and the plugins it comes with. You simply have more tools at your fingertips in the proprietary world. And further, I agree with Russ --- the sequencing side of things just isn't really there. Maybe for stuff that's supposed to sound realistic. But try programming a complex synth line, replete with legatos and extremely- small interval fragments, and add in automation of filfreq, reso, panning, etc. It's doable, but it's painful. And the more time you spend fighting an app, the less time you spend making music. There's a reason tb303 synth apps are so popular, and it *ain't* just because the tb303 hardware is rare --- it's because the truth is, it's a feckin' PITA to use. For the kind of stuff I'm interested in (see my above band references to get an idea), I think it is eminently clear that Linux isn't good enough. Maybe it is just me, but I have been struggling intensely for some time to get things to work out, and it just ain't happening. If anybody here has got some tracks that can prove me wrong, I'd love to hear 'em. And maybe I'll get back to Windows world and have the same problems --- but I sincerely doubt it. I'm not sure what it is --- some times, open source whomps up, sometimes, it just can't keep up. For the realm of music I'm in, it lags. Same thing for videogames (obviously). Maybe this will change with time, but with all the new stuff that's been going on, the gap has been widening if it's moved at all. This causes a lot of cognitive dissonance for myself, and I'm not sure why. Maybe I drank too much GNU kool-aid as a kid, or maybe it's all the years I've logged in emacs. Most likely, I'm just obsessive compulsive, and I like to be able to say "this is this and that is that." The fact that I can't yet figure out the rule for when open source is going to produce the better product is probably driving me slightly mad. That, and the fact that years of believing in Stallman gospel have probably deranged me a bit. Man, I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I suppose my overarching point is, don't confuse "good enough" with "best." From my moral perspective, at least, it's simply a matter of what gives you the best cost-benefit ratio, and there are many, many factors which make up both parts of that ratio beyond simple dollars. I'll end this on a slightly unrelated note. When I see a beautiful piece of software, I want to remunerate the creators. Be that the gorgeously bump mapped characters in Halo 2, or the ultra slick interface of FL studio, I have a sincere appreciation for the time and effort that went into the production of that software, and a desire to share some of the joy it's use has given me with the producers in a way I know they'll appreciate --- cold, hard cash. Functionality is just as important as looks, and that's another thing which compels me to compensate the producer. Even if we ruled out the idea that I need to pay to play anyway, using a wonderful product makes me want to shell out. It's a way to ensure future output from the author. But what about when you have not-so-wonderful product to work with? Paying for that is a risk then. Assuming I didn't kill Specimen, if I asked you for a $200 donation to support the future of Specimen, you've got to hope that your cash is actually going to result in Specimen becoming, like, totally sweet. Considering that you don't really know me, that's understandably a bit to swallow. But it's worse than that --- you don't know if anybody else is going to donate! Your $200 might be wasted if you have no way of knowing if anybody else will contribute. $200 isn't even going to pay my rent --- if I only get your donation, I can't exactly quit my day job. The way I see it, if everyone had some way of knowing for absolute fact that if they put in their $200, they will get an absolutely awesome product, then there would be no problem with the quality of open source software. And a smarter person than myself might figure out a way to do just that. But as things are now, funding open source software via donations is a bet on the users part. And so long as the funding problem isn't solved, open source is not going to consistently lead the way. The fact of the matter is, people got bills to pay. There are other problems (not sure that's the right word), but this strikes me as perhaps the most fundamental one. If we figured out how to end-run it, then everything else might be moot and open source might rule the world. But so long as the problem exists, I don't think we're ever going to be in a world where the technical merits of open source beat proprietary for every possible task. And while technical merits aren't the whole deal, they are a signifcant part of it. Goddamn I'm getting long winded in my old age. There's something to chew on. Like Paul's brains, because I'm a DAMN ZOMBIE! -Pete From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 20 23:40:22 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 21 00:10:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:15 -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > For the kind of stuff I'm interested in (see my above band references > to > get an idea), I think it is eminently clear that Linux isn't good > enough. Maybe it is just me, but I have been struggling intensely for > some time to get things to work out, and it just ain't happening. If > anybody here has got some tracks that can prove me wrong, I'd love to > hear 'em. And maybe I'll get back to Windows world and have the same > problems --- but I sincerely doubt it. > I think these gaps will be filled in rapidly as Linux systems with good RT performance get more widely deployed. Once we get to the point where you can boot the latest LiveCD from any distro and get better latency OOTB than OSX or Windows, developers will not be able to resist. We are still not there yet but getting very close (months, not years). Lee From richard.spindler at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 02:43:39 2006 From: richard.spindler at gmail.com (Richard Spindler) Date: Tue Feb 21 02:43:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4af8d6ff0602202343w9833f49g@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/20, Pete Bessman : > WHAT is your NAME? Richard Spindler > WHAT is your QUEST? Write, use and advocate FREE Software. > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? I don't listen to music very much. Hi, First of all, I'm not a musician, but a programmer. I enjoy hacking audio and multimedia tools, because it's a more demanding field than most other programming topics. And as a programmer it actually makes sense to rely on free software tools only, because there are plenty of them and most of them are very good, propably better then all non-free alternatives, although a don't use these very often. And this is not without reason, because every single time I tried to use a non-free piece of software, I gave up on it. Not because I had moral doubt's, but because I felt severly limited with what I could do. There is a certain approach in non-free software development, that's contrary to my understandig and my way to work with software. And that is it tries to hide what's inside. The perfect example is an IDE, non-free IDEs provide a bunch of wizards and a "run" Button, and then you hack your stuff press the button and in the background the compiler and linker and whatever starts to work. But I can't see what's EXACTLY going on, because I can't see inside. I can't work like that, it totally pisses me off. I want to know what's happening and why it's happening. This of course doesn't apply only to IDEs, but to most other non-free software as well. I hate it. The Problem is not when everything works fine, but when something breaks, deep down inside. If you have an open Environment and a smart mind, you can dig down, find the flaw and fix it. This is almost impossible or often unecessarily hard to do in a non-free Enviornment. This alone is reason enough to dismiss non-free software for me, but it's not all. Es mentioned already, there is the issue of copying software. I can copy a tape or CD, and give it to a friend, and I believe this is fair use and legal, at least in most countries. I can also copy pages from a book and no one would mind or call me thief or immoral. Honestly I do not see any difference to software, and I certainly don't like the approach that I may not copy it to help a friend or neighbour. Yet another reason why I prefer free alternatives. While I don't have any moral issues copying software from microsoft, obviously they do have enough money, there is yet another reason why I don't like copying software. And that is all these stupid obstacles, that are associated with non-free software. Like serials, and cracks. Everytime you wan't to copy a piece of non-free software, you have to hunt down uselessly lengthy numbers, search all of these dark, non-eye-friendly porn advertising, popup ridden webpages, just to get a piece of software to fix some braindead anti-copy measurement. No thanks, not with me. Of course sometimes there are limitations in what free software can do, and people demand that "this" or "that" needs to be adressed by free software before they are willing to use it. While I agree that there might be limitations, I'd like to offer a little example why I happly comply with these. I own an old black and white laser printer. When my girlfriend decided that she needed her own printer, she also demanded that she'll need a color printer, because color is, ... well "more fun". Therefore why we got a cheap color printer for her, can't be that bad, right? Well, the paint is expensive and the printouts are awful. Therefore I prefer to limit myself to black and white, although I have to be careful when I design my documents to make sure they still look nice while being printed in monochrome. In the end it's even more fun to design simple stuff when limited to two colors. And this is also the approach that I employ when dealing with software. And it's all worth it. -Richard From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Tue Feb 21 04:31:11 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Tue Feb 21 04:31:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? Message-ID: Pete Bessman: > But try programming a complex synth line, replete with legatos and > extremely- small interval fragments, and add in automation of filfreq, reso, > panning, etc. It's doable, but it's painful. And the more time you > spend fighting an app, the less time you spend making music. There's a > reason tb303 synth apps are so popular, and it *ain't* just because the > tb303 hardware is rare --- it's because the truth is, it's a feckin' > PITA to use. Well, I gave it a shot, using radium, zynaddsubfx and jack-rack. I don't usually do this kind of music, and my version of zynaddsubfx is a bit old. Anyway. :-) : http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/ashot.png The brown line in radium is tempo, and the green line is connected to the cutoff frequency in the butterworth filter in jack-rack. Its very easy to set up, but I had no idea about effects or sounds or anything, so I spent some time though. The notes are fairly random. And here is the sound: http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/jack_capture_1.ogg I'd say its pretty good to be done by an amatour in a hurry. :-) From t_w_ at freenet.de Tue Feb 21 06:05:10 2006 From: t_w_ at freenet.de (Thorsten Wilms) Date: Tue Feb 21 06:05:17 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20060221110510.GA6792@charly.SWORD> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:15:48PM -0500, a Zombie wrote: *too much* I used to make music with just an old workstation (Korg M1), so I was used to live with limitations. Maybe that helps me to get along now. Part of what I wanted to have was a good simple sampler for Drums and some FX. Specimen stalled just when it was about to become a solution thanks to multiple jack outs. But currently, I'm not interested in using samples, besides a few effects, maybe. Prefer synthesized drums via Om now. Always dreamed of a nice modular synth and couldn't afford one of the propietary offerings back when I was ok with using Windows. Now there is Om. It's quite good and the next release will be realy good. I helped Dave a bit with UI decisions and enjoyed it very much. Couldn't take part in the development of any closed software like that (even if someone would listen, I wouldn't like to pay for my own ideas later on). The online support can't be surpased, it's not very scalable, though. Somewhen around the Milennium, when I had no internet access and didn't know shit about Linux and co, I bought Cubase VST. Was a great tool, except when it crashed and took Windows with it. I hate to spend money on crashing software. I would have had to buy an update to make it run on a newer than 98 Windows. Win 98 doesn't like PCI Express. This lockin/ update stuff is one very big reason for me to stay away from propietary software. Another one is copy-protection and how it gets in the way of hounest customers only, as the crackers laugh. I like the idea of being able to revisit projects after several years. Open Source makes this far more likely to work. I hate the idea to put hours and hours of work into closed file formats. It's like putting my work into black boxes that are someone else's property. How nice of them to grant me acces to my own work! With DRM and stuff this can only become worse. MIDI sequencing is still rather painful on Linux, but can only become better. MusE is quite close, there are just some nasty issues. I will accept a hit to my productivity (have to do some others things, anyway) and rather stay in control. Finaly, I make music for the fun of it, not for being the best. In this age of diversity and plentifulness, creativity is much about being just that bit different, I think (being all different means burning bridges). Zombies and Windows might just fit, though. Cheers, Thorsten Wilms From hannu at opensound.com Tue Feb 21 07:56:01 2006 From: hannu at opensound.com (Hannu Savolainen) Date: Tue Feb 21 07:56:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > Well, then they might have some expectation to be able to use it, no? > Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or > applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software > is crippled in its usefulness. Usually software companies take care of fixing the errors themselves. If they fail to fix them then you have the right to get your money back. When you buy some software you certainly know it's only going tor un under some given operating system(s). If you expect anything else it's clearly your fault. > When buying electronic appliances, at one time you could rely on the > schematics being in the inside. That meant you could make full use of > the appliance, adapt it to different problems (using a radio as a > guitar amplifier), repair it and keep it in working order, and you > could take it to service men of your choice to have it adapted or > fixed. The point is that having full schemantics for some hardware device doesn't make you capable to make free copies of the device. It's just a document that makes the device itself more usefull. So to make the schematic usefull you have to buy the actual product. However software source code is not a document. It's the software itself. Having the sources makes you able to improve the code. It also makes it possible to produce competing products very easily. So if you give your source code you very much kiss goodbye to your rights. > That's basically what workmanship is about: offering the best to the > customer to make use of. > > Just 20 years ago, it was customary to provide computer purchasers or > service people with schematics, BIOS listings and similar stuff > (partly on request and for payment). Now it is trade secret this, > closed source that, not for your eyes this. I think the problem is pretty much the size of the software. In 80's typical BIOS was just tens of pages of paper. Listings of current BIOSes are likely to be thousands of pages. I quess you don't want the BIOS listing but the full BIOS (source) code itself. However these are very different things. > It is annoying. If I want a Porsche engine in a VW bug, I can buy the > parts and all relevant service manuals and plans, and put a mechanic > to work. When you buy any serious software (other than some el cheapo consumer stuff) you will get full documentation (for some parts of it you will have to buy the SDK). Practically every major software package has all kind of setup files, scripts, plugin/DLL interfaces, built in custom programming/scripting languages and things like that. These docs/tools/interfaces will make it possible to do things you can't even dream to do with a VW bug. Yes. If you don't want to pay anything for software your only choice is to get some morally clean free sofware with no other documentation than the source code. This works well if you are a programmer and have enough spare time to find out how the source code works. However for large majority of computer users this free model doesn't work at all. They simply don't have any capability to modify or even understand the source code. In fact they don't even know what source code means. So they find it easier and cheaper to use evil commercial/proprietary software. It may be morally wrong to produce this kind of software but in practice it's the only way to fund the extra work required to make the software easier to use, to produce the additional documentation and to handle the packaging/marketing/logistic required by this model. This is about 90% of the total effort while writing the software code means just 10%. Best regards, Hannu ----- Hannu Savolainen (hannu@opensound.com) http://www.opensound.com (Open Sound System (OSS)) http://www.compusonic.fi (Finnish OSS pages) OH2GLH QTH: Karkkila, Finland LOC: KP20CM From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 09:37:49 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 09:34:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <20060221110510.GA6792@charly.SWORD> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <20060221110510.GA6792@charly.SWORD> Message-ID: <1140532669.5284.49.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 12:05 +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:15:48PM -0500, a Zombie wrote: > *too much* I know... > Somewhen around the Milennium, when I had no internet access and > didn't know shit about Linux and co, I bought Cubase VST. > Was a great tool, except when it crashed and took Windows with > it. I hate to spend money on crashing software. > I would have had to buy an update to make it run on a newer > than 98 Windows. Win 98 doesn't like PCI Express. This lockin/ > update stuff is one very big reason for me to stay away from > propietary software. > Another one is copy-protection and how it gets in the way of > hounest customers only, as the crackers laugh. This is actually about what happened to me when I first made the switch. Things have definitely gotten more stable in Windows land, and OSX is relatively solid, but Linux is still teh weener here. And, obviously, vendor lock-in and zealous copy-protection aren't an issue. > I like the idea of being able to revisit projects after several > years. Open Source makes this far more likely to work. > I hate the idea to put hours and hours of work into closed > file formats. It's like putting my work into black boxes that > are someone else's property. How nice of them to grant me acces > to my own work! With DRM and stuff this can only become worse. This is a very important point, and I think it underscores the fact that costs and benefits are variegated things. > Finaly, I make music for the fun of it, not for being the best. > In this age of diversity and plentifulness, creativity is much > about being just that bit different, I think (being all > different means burning bridges). I wouldn't say I necessarily aim to be the best musician, since that seems to be something which can't really be objectively determined. But I do like the cutting edge, and the fact that I can't make the kind of music I want to make with the tools at my disposal is maddening. -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 08:08:43 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 09:52:00 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: (Hannu Savolainen's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:56:01 +0200 (EET)") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Hannu Savolainen writes: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > >> Well, then they might have some expectation to be able to use it, no? >> Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or >> applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software >> is crippled in its usefulness. > Usually software companies take care of fixing the errors themselves. If > they fail to fix them then you have the right to get your money back. Oh nonsense. Time to read those license agreements again, I guess. > Yes. If you don't want to pay anything for software your only choice > is to get some morally clean free sofware with no other > documentation than the source code. This works well if you are a > programmer and have enough spare time to find out how the source > code works. Who is talking about not paying? > However for large majority of computer users this free model doesn't > work at all. They simply don't have any capability to modify or even > understand the source code. In fact they don't even know what source > code means. Like the average consumer who has a circuit diagram in his appliance. The point is that this makes it possible to get it serviced by somebody knowledgable in the trade. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 05:06:09 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 09:52:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> (Lee Revell's message of "Mon, 20 Feb 2006 23:40:22 -0500") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Lee Revell writes: > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:15 -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > >> For the kind of stuff I'm interested in (see my above band >> references to get an idea), I think it is eminently clear that >> Linux isn't good enough. Maybe it is just me, but I have been >> struggling intensely for some time to get things to work out, and >> it just ain't happening. If anybody here has got some tracks that >> can prove me wrong, I'd love to hear 'em. And maybe I'll get back >> to Windows world and have the same problems --- but I sincerely >> doubt it. > > I think these gaps will be filled in rapidly as Linux systems with > good RT performance get more widely deployed. Once we get to the > point where you can boot the latest LiveCD from any distro and get > better latency OOTB than OSX or Windows, developers will not be able > to resist. > > We are still not there yet but getting very close (months, not > years). There is one thing you have to be aware of: if freedom to modify and redistribute and edit do not factor in the assessment of "best", then of course preexisting applications will win over stuff that still has to be written and completed. And with regard of design and coherence and originality, a team of 5 full-time programmers is different from 50 part-time programmers. The "Open Source" mantra that public development is tantamount with technically superior software is putting the cart before the horse. Software does not just fall off the trees. Free software gives you the opportunity to shape the state of the software you are working with. It puts the power into your own hand. Whether you are in a position to usefully wield it is a different question. Pete complains that maybe he has listened too much to Stallman. I am afraid if he did, he did not understand too much. Stallman is not a person who promises superior quality of free software: that would be the panacea of the "Open Software" camp. Stallman says that he refuses to use non-free software for ethical reasons. He does not preach that the grass is greener on his side. He just refuses to be fenced in on the other side, regardless of the color of grass. Fighting to get free software to do the job, sharing one's experiences, communicating with the developers all takes the state of free software forward. This progress remains for others to continue with even if at one point of time you run out of steam. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 21 10:05:00 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:12:26 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> "Free software". But I do loosely use both terms. The problem with open-source-as-ideology is that it uses ends and evaluative methods drawn from business and applies them to things that are not business. It may or may not be true that open source development can produce better software for the consumer, but I don't think that that end is a sufficient one for people who are working from choice, for their own enjoyment on inessential software. If you find yourself working for no material return on things that are driven by goals best expressed in business terms -- to beat Microsoft, to produce a free alternative to product X, to get all the users and pull the carpet out from under Y -- then you've been seduced into doing work that is properly someone else's, or only properly done for money, or properly not done at all. The right answer to "I want to use FL Studio" really is "use FL Studio". Until you can engineer a means by which FL Studio itself can become free software and its developers still eat -- or unless you can justify competing with it for business reasons -- it's foolish to get worked up about competing with it at all. That's a business end, and you're not in business. An irony of both open source and free software is that they make it easy to forget that all software is almost always written by decent humans -- for example, by implying that proprietary software developers are less moral and so less significant. If my free software work puts a company or its developers out of work, then that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory for free software. And it's not "just business", because it's not business. I will have damaged people's livelihoods, for fun. > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? "Love's Secret Domain". Chris From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 10:30:27 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:30:37 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> (Chris Cannam's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:05:00 +0000") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Chris Cannam writes: > An irony of both open source and free software is that they make it > easy to forget that all software is almost always written by decent > humans -- for example, by implying that proprietary software > developers are less moral and so less significant. If my free > software work puts a company or its developers out of work, then > that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory for free > software. And it's not "just business", because it's not business. > I will have damaged people's livelihoods, for fun. That particular argument does not hold water at all, sorry. Following your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, and that merely for their selfish desire of a world worth living in. If their livelihoods get tougher because of a world where work is shared and exchanged between consenting and cooperating humans, so much the better. It is a byproduct one can live with. The mantra of artificial inefficiency by forced reinvention of the wheel is nothing that aids progress: it merely supports stagnation, at the same time burning through our natural resources at appalling rates for the sake of sustaining the illusion of progress. In the last century or so, the productivity of a worker in industrialized countries has increased more than a hundredfold, the average work time has dropped to about half. The missing factor of 50 is mostly smoke and mirrors: people mostly do nonsensical tasks, aim for nonsensical goals, fight for nonsensical stuff. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 10:34:48 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:31:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140536088.5284.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 11:06 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > Pete complains that maybe he has listened too much to Stallman. I am > afraid if he did, he did not understand too much. Stallman is not a > person who promises superior quality of free software: that would be > the panacea of the "Open Software" camp. Stallman says that he > refuses to use non-free software for ethical reasons. I know what he stands for, I just don't agree with it anymore. I think it's illogical, and I think my subconcious always rejected it, and as a response to this psychological discomfort, I think I developed a knee- jerk "sucks" response to proprietary software. It's what psychologists call projection. When confronted with a shortcoming in yourself, you project that same shortcoming onto others so you don't feel like it's totally yours to deal with. You think OSS has UI issues? You should see windows! You think dependency hell sucks? Well go check out DLL hell! Etc. Basically, after years of forcing myself to accept a dogma that, upon closer inspection, I think is a bunch of baloney, I have a lot of poison in my brain that I need to remove so that I can think clearly, calmly, and rationally. There are some ex-communists in the libertarian circles in which I tread, and they have the same kind of problem WRT Marx and communist ideology. And current communists are engaging in projection and the like on an awe-inspiring scale. BTW, this isn't meant to equate OSS with communism. I just want to drive home the point that I did not misinterpret one iota of the Stallman verse --- I'm just tossing it in the trash bin along with my Torah. -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 10:49:19 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:45:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <1140536959.5284.77.camel@localhost.localdomain> Chris, pay no attention to Dave. That message was bloody brilliant! Very enlightening, head slapping "Oh man! That's IT!" read. You should really consider expanding that and putting it up somewhere in essay form, they're are a quintillion people who could benefit by reading it. -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From dsbaikov at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 10:48:40 2006 From: dsbaikov at gmail.com (Dmitry Baikov) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:48:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <70a871c80602210748j6630442an86eee1daf07b7b08@mail.gmail.com> Chris and Pete, please DO pay attention to On 2/21/06, David Kastrup wrote: > The mantra of artificial inefficiency by forced reinvention of the > wheel is nothing that aids progress: it merely supports stagnation, at > the same time burning through our natural resources at appalling rates > for the sake of sustaining the illusion of progress. > > In the last century or so, the productivity of a worker in > industrialized countries has increased more than a hundredfold, the > average work time has dropped to about half. The missing factor of 50 > is mostly smoke and mirrors: people mostly do nonsensical tasks, aim > for nonsensical goals, fight for nonsensical stuff. Regards, Dmitry. From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 10:57:00 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 10:53:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:30 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > Chris Cannam writes: > > > An irony of both open source and free software is that they make it > > easy to forget that all software is almost always written by decent > > humans -- for example, by implying that proprietary software > > developers are less moral and so less significant. If my free > > software work puts a company or its developers out of work, then > > that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory for free > > software. And it's not "just business", because it's not business. > > I will have damaged people's livelihoods, for fun. > > That particular argument does not hold water at all, sorry. Following > your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are damaging the > livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, and that merely > for their selfish desire of a world worth living in. No, this is a bunch of BS. You're equating software producers with weapon producers, who you're equating with evil (and, implicitly, weapon users, a fact which I find personally insulting). That's all wrong, but the salient point is that Chris stipulated that proprietary software producers *aren't* evil! The only way they can be evil is if you stipulate a moral code which dictates as much. They're not torturing babies, for chrissakes. > If their livelihoods get tougher because of a world where work is > shared and exchanged between consenting and cooperating humans, so > much the better. It is a byproduct one can live with. Yeah, ever heard of capitalism? Or do you have a bone to pick with that, too? Seriously, there are better things to do than demonize proprietary software producers. Go kill a terrorist if you need somebody to beat up on, at least you'll be making the world a better place in the process. Last I checked, Microsoft wasn't bombing any subways. -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 11:04:22 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Pete Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:00:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1140537862.5284.87.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 01:31 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > And here is the sound: > http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/jack_capture_1.ogg > > I'd say its pretty good to be done by an amatour in a hurry. :-) Well, that was interesting. I had no idea this program even existed, but you may be on to something with it. I'll keep a lazy eye on it ;-) -- Pete Bessman http://gazuga.net "So this baby seal walks into a club." From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 21 10:55:49 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:03:14 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <200602211555.49589.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 15:30, David Kastrup wrote: > Following your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are > damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, > and that merely for their selfish desire of a world worth living in. *sigh* We're not talking about weapons. We're talking specifically about interesting and constructive pieces of music software. I believe that the existence of FL Studio and software like it enhances the world. You might argue that it would be better if written or distributed in a different way, but if you're arguing that this software would be better not existing at all -- as you might do of weapons -- then we have no common basis for this discussion. Write free music software if you wish to. I do. But if you're only doing it because you're sour about someone else's work, then you're not doing a good thing; don't delude yourself that you are. > If their livelihoods get tougher because of a world where work is > shared and exchanged between consenting and cooperating humans, so > much the better. Read that again, and tell me whether it really says what you meant. Chris From dsbaikov at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:06:14 2006 From: dsbaikov at gmail.com (Dmitry Baikov) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:06:23 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <70a871c80602210806k2d8132e3g4e96ab7dc7a2adbf@mail.gmail.com> > weapon producers, who you're equating with evil > (and, implicitly, weapon > users, a fact which I find personally insulting). That's all wrong, Very arguable. I find him being right about weapons. > Yeah, ever heard of capitalism? Or do you have a bone to pick with > that, too? Capitalism in its pure "as is" form is very anti-human. It is very effective and rational, but we are not robots. Moreover, our irrational and ineffective parts are making us humans. > Last I checked, Microsoft wasn't bombing any subways. Living in a slavery of mind and soul is not what's called Life. From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 11:28:28 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:29:12 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Pete Bessman's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:57:00 -0500") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <85mzgkllqr.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Pete Bessman writes: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:30 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> Chris Cannam writes: >> >> > An irony of both open source and free software is that they make it >> > easy to forget that all software is almost always written by decent >> > humans -- for example, by implying that proprietary software >> > developers are less moral and so less significant. If my free >> > software work puts a company or its developers out of work, then >> > that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory for free >> > software. And it's not "just business", because it's not business. >> > I will have damaged people's livelihoods, for fun. >> >> That particular argument does not hold water at all, sorry. >> Following your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are >> damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, >> and that merely for their selfish desire of a world worth living >> in. > > No, this is a bunch of BS. You're equating software producers with > weapon producers, Wrong. What about "following your kind of logic" don't you understand? I am showing that _your_ kind of argument applies equally well to both. If you find this offensive, then this just shows that your argument does not hold water: because it works just the same on the different example. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 11:32:47 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:34:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140536088.5284.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> (Pete Bessman's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:34:48 -0500") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140536088.5284.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <85irr8lljk.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Pete Bessman writes: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 11:06 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >> Pete complains that maybe he has listened too much to Stallman. I am >> afraid if he did, he did not understand too much. Stallman is not a >> person who promises superior quality of free software: that would be >> the panacea of the "Open Software" camp. Stallman says that he >> refuses to use non-free software for ethical reasons. > > I know what he stands for, I just don't agree with it anymore. I think > it's illogical, and I think my subconcious always rejected it, and as a > response to this psychological discomfort, I think I developed a knee- > jerk "sucks" response to proprietary software. > > It's what psychologists call projection. When confronted with a > shortcoming in yourself, you project that same shortcoming onto others > so you don't feel like it's totally yours to deal with. You think OSS > has UI issues? You should see windows! You think dependency hell > sucks? Well go check out DLL hell! Etc. > > Basically, after years of forcing myself to accept a dogma that, upon > closer inspection, I think is a bunch of baloney, I have a lot of poison > in my brain that I need to remove so that I can think clearly, calmly, > and rationally. There are some ex-communists in the libertarian circles > in which I tread, and they have the same kind of problem WRT Marx and > communist ideology. And current communists are engaging in projection > and the like on an awe-inspiring scale. > > BTW, this isn't meant to equate OSS with communism. I just want to > drive home the point that I did not misinterpret one iota of the > Stallman verse --- I'm just tossing it in the trash bin along with > my Torah. Well, what you theatrically toss has not been Stallman's invention at all. I recommend you search for another scapegoat. He never promised you a Rosegarden. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From hannu at opensound.com Tue Feb 21 11:46:07 2006 From: hannu at opensound.com (Hannu Savolainen) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:46:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > > Yes. If you don't want to pay anything for software your only choice > > is to get some morally clean free sofware with no other > > documentation than the source code. This works well if you are a > > programmer and have enough spare time to find out how the source > > code works. > > Who is talking about not paying? In practice using "free" software also means that you are using it "for free"? I apologize if this was not the case with you. If you have really paid seomething to the authors of the "free" software packages you are using then I would say your moral is exceptionally high. Some of my (sound/oss) code has been in the kernel under GPL since mid 90's. During all the (10+) years only one person has offered to donate $10. Based on that experience the above "free" vs "for free" statement is correct. Best regards, Hannu ----- Hannu Savolainen (hannu@opensound.com) http://www.opensound.com (Open Sound System (OSS)) http://www.compusonic.fi (Finnish OSS pages) OH2GLH QTH: Karkkila, Finland LOC: KP20CM From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 11:51:41 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:51:51 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: (Hannu Savolainen's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:46:07 +0200 (EET)") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <8564n8lko2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Hannu Savolainen writes: > On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > >> > Yes. If you don't want to pay anything for software your only choice >> > is to get some morally clean free sofware with no other >> > documentation than the source code. This works well if you are a >> > programmer and have enough spare time to find out how the source >> > code works. >> >> Who is talking about not paying? > In practice using "free" software also means that you are using it > "for free"? I apologize if this was not the case with you. If you > have really paid seomething to the authors of the "free" software > packages you are using then I would say your moral is exceptionally > high. I make my livelihood developing free software for pay. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From tim at quitte.de Tue Feb 21 11:51:00 2006 From: tim at quitte.de (Tim Goetze) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:55:56 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: [Pete Bessman] >the salient point is that Chris stipulated that proprietary software >producers *aren't* evil! The only way they can be evil is if you >stipulate a moral code which dictates as much. I keep a good 150 or so .arr files around, stemming from the late 80s, early 90s, back when I used to do MIDI-only work with Cubase on an ST. A few years ago, I wanted to revisit/-edit my music from that time. So I turned to Steinberg to help me in decoding the files. The short version: I asked for file format docs, they said "Buy the latest Cubase instead", I said "What would I run it on?", they said "Mac or Win", I said "I own neither and don't plan to", they said "Then you're SOL". I don't know about you, but denying me unfettered access to my very own data certainly meets my definition of "evil". Cheers, Tim From hannu at opensound.com Tue Feb 21 11:57:48 2006 From: hannu at opensound.com (Hannu Savolainen) Date: Tue Feb 21 11:58:27 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <8564n8lko2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <8564n8lko2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > > In practice using "free" software also means that you are using it > > "for free"? I apologize if this was not the case with you. If you > > have really paid seomething to the authors of the "free" software > > packages you are using then I would say your moral is exceptionally > > high. > > I make my livelihood developing free software for pay. May I ask what kind of code you are doing for living? Best regards, Hannu ----- Hannu Savolainen (hannu@opensound.com) http://www.opensound.com (Open Sound System (OSS)) http://www.compusonic.fi (Finnish OSS pages) OH2GLH QTH: Karkkila, Finland LOC: KP20CM From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 12:04:28 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 12:04:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: (Tim Goetze's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 17:51:00 +0100 (CET)") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <851wxwlk2r.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Tim Goetze writes: > [Pete Bessman] >>the salient point is that Chris stipulated that proprietary software >>producers *aren't* evil! The only way they can be evil is if you >>stipulate a moral code which dictates as much. > > I keep a good 150 or so .arr files around, stemming from the late 80s, > early 90s, back when I used to do MIDI-only work with Cubase on an ST. > > A few years ago, I wanted to revisit/-edit my music from that time. > So I turned to Steinberg to help me in decoding the files. The short > version: I asked for file format docs, they said "Buy the latest > Cubase instead", I said "What would I run it on?", they said "Mac or > Win", I said "I own neither and don't plan to", they said "Then you're > SOL". > > I don't know about you, but denying me unfettered access to my very > own data certainly meets my definition of "evil". Not mine. It is not like they promised you anything or that they'd be obliged to help you out. They are not a charity. That's one of the reasons why using nonfree software is a bad idea. It reduces you to begging, and that's not a good position to be in, regardless of whether the person you need to beg from is goodwilled or not. The price to get the source may be higher: in developers you pay, in work you invest yourself. But it means that you still have the option to take your business elsewhere if necessary. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 12:05:55 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 12:06:11 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: (Hannu Savolainen's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 18:57:48 +0200 (EET)") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <8564n8lko2.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <85wtfok5fw.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Hannu Savolainen writes: > On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, David Kastrup wrote: > >> > In practice using "free" software also means that you are using it >> > "for free"? I apologize if this was not the case with you. If you >> > have really paid seomething to the authors of the "free" software >> > packages you are using then I would say your moral is exceptionally >> > high. >> >> I make my livelihood developing free software for pay. > May I ask what kind of code you are doing for living? TeX programming, document layout, typesetting stuff. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From pw_lists at slinkp.com Tue Feb 21 12:16:24 2006 From: pw_lists at slinkp.com (Paul Winkler) Date: Tue Feb 21 12:16:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20060221171624.GC9608@slinkp.com> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 02:55:53PM -0500, Pete Bessman wrote: > WHAT is your NAME? Slink P. > WHAT is your QUEST? To have enough time to play music and hang out with my wife, enough money to pay off my credit cards (and buy more gear), and health insurance. Ideological debates are pretty much de-prioritized for me these days. But I still run 100% free and 99% libre software :-) Why? At this point it's a cultural habit. For me to run anything else there has to be a compelling reason, and frankly I have not seen any. I was toying with the idea of getting a Mac, because I'm tired of investing so much time in my computers, but after what's happened with my wife's ibook lately*, I don't think the alternative is any better. Running linux can be time-consuming and maddening at times, but I hate feeling helpless and ripped off even more. > WHAT is your FAVORITE ALBUM? The Who, "Live at Leeds", preferably the 2-CD set. * US $300 to replace a faulty inverter, and it came back with a broken wireless antenna. This conveniently happened just two months after the overpriced extended warranty plan expired, and just barely cheap enough to justify not buying a new laptop yet. And this is apparently relatively *good* service? No thanks. Now back to your regularly scheduled soapboxes. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com From musical_snake at gmx.de Tue Feb 21 12:49:29 2006 From: musical_snake at gmx.de (Ralf Beck) Date: Tue Feb 21 12:51:13 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <43FB52A9.1070800@gmx.de> I think these gaps will be filled in rapidly as Linux systems with good >RT performance get more widely deployed. Once we get to the point where >you can boot the latest LiveCD from any distro and get better latency >OOTB than OSX or Windows, developers will not be able to resist. > >We are still not there yet but getting very close (months, not years). > >Lee > > > > With RTAI there is an easy to use hard realtime capable extension of linux which offers latencies far below anything you will ever see on OSX/Win. Its only drawback is you have to rewrite the interrupt routine of your soundcard drivers in userspace and replace the POSIX syncronization code of your apps by the one of RTAI (and this would not take months).. The only thing i currently miss under linux is a linux own driver for my UAD1 card (which is currently running in an XP machine hooked up to linux through ethernet). BTW: All vst(i)s i currently use are running perfectly under wine-0.9.7 with Torben Hohn's libfst-1.7. So i don't see really much benefit of going back to windows. Ralf From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Mon Feb 20 17:17:36 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Tue Feb 21 14:06:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140473856.6608.6.camel@eviltwin> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 16:16 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 13:01 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > But please, IMO, don't pay for any non-open source software. There are > > lots of excellent p2p tools you can use to get the software you need. > > Please don't support makers of non-open source software. > > What?!?!? Are you serious? This is terrible advice. Just because we > don't like their business model does not give us the right to steal from > them. > > How can we expect people to abide by the GPL if we don't respect their > licensing terms? Stealing proprietary software is exactly as immoral as > proprietary vendors ripping off GPL'ed code. > Second that! Be ethical in whatever you do. I also have to say that if you can't find an open source package that does what you need and there is a proprietary one that does, then buy it. Programmers have to eat too ;-) -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Tue Feb 21 14:09:42 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Tue Feb 21 14:12:51 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> Message-ID: <1140548982.14415.3.camel@eviltwin> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 22:28 +0100, Bj?rn Lindstr?m wrote: > Lee Revell : > > > How can we expect people to abide by the GPL if we don't respect > > their licensing terms? Stealing proprietary software is exactly as > > immoral as proprietary vendors ripping off GPL'ed code. > > While you do have a point, I can't agree with this. > > In so far as moral can be applied here, restricting people from > tinkering with the software they run is immoral, since it diminishes > their freedom. > > Copyright, on the other hand, is an arbitrary monopoly instituted by > the state. > You're absolutely correct! Let's get rid of copyright law especially since the evil GPL is based on it. Also, any song you write I'll be glad to take and exploit for money without giving you any of the money or attributing the song to you. Good idea, how long did it take you to come up with this? -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Tue Feb 21 14:44:42 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Tue Feb 21 14:47:17 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140551082.14415.24.camel@eviltwin> On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:41 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > fons adriaensen writes: > > > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 11:01:10PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > > > >> Lee Revell writes: > >> > >> > By this logic, locking my doors is immoral because it diminishes > >> > people's freedom to roam around my house. > >> > >> Those people have not paid for access to your house. Purchasers of > >> proprietary software _have_ paid for access to the software. > > > > They have paid for a license to use it, and for nothing else. > > Well, then they might have some expectation to be able to use it, no? > Without the ability to adapt the software to different devices or > applications, or fix errors (or pay someone to do that), the software > is crippled in its usefulness. > > When buying electronic appliances, at one time you could rely on the > schematics being in the inside. That meant you could make full use of > the appliance, adapt it to different problems (using a radio as a > guitar amplifier), repair it and keep it in working order, and you > could take it to service men of your choice to have it adapted or > fixed. > > That's basically what workmanship is about: offering the best to the > customer to make use of. > > Just 20 years ago, it was customary to provide computer purchasers or > service people with schematics, BIOS listings and similar stuff > (partly on request and for payment). Now it is trade secret this, > closed source that, not for your eyes this. > > It is annoying. If I want a Porsche engine in a VW bug, I can buy the > parts and all relevant service manuals and plans, and put a mechanic > to work. > > If I want Excel running on GNU/Linux, I can just shoot myself. I am > not paying for such crippled software. If that means that I have to > do with less sophisticated free software, so be it. It is a price to > pay, but at least it keeps me in control and power and responsibility. > Survey says... BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong. You would buy Crossover Office and then install a perfectly legal, paid for copy of Micro$oft Orifice. It runs fine on my system. -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 21 14:46:44 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 21 14:54:10 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602211946.44446.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 15:57, Pete Bessman wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:30 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > > Following your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are > > damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, > > and that merely for their selfish desire of a world worth living > > in. > > No, this is a bunch of BS. It's not bullshit. It's just misdirection. If you take out the subjective language, David just said: > > Following your kind of logic, people who oppose the proliferation of > > weapons are damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent > > people mostly, because of their desire for a world without weapons. (Assuming for the benefit of his logic that you do think weapons producers are mostly decent as individuals and that their opponents may succeed in damaging their livelihoods.) Look closely at this. What do you see? The statement is true. It's not even controversial. But it doesn't add anything, because it isn't reasonable to suppose that we will have the same response to the fates of weapons producers as of authors of quality music software, nor to the ends of their opponents. It's only there to make you jump to a conclusion about one thing based on your emotional response to another. It's logical, but it's brainless. In any case, my point was that you shouldn't have to be making this sort of calculus. If it's not business, do it out of love, not because a business would do it. Chris From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 15:04:21 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Peter Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:04:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602211946.44446.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <85r75wlofg.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140537420.5284.86.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211946.44446.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <43FB7245.4030101@gazuga.net> Chris Cannam wrote: > On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 15:57, Pete Bessman wrote: > >> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:30 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> >>> Following your kind of logic, people caring for peace on Earth are >>> damaging the livelihoods of weapon producers, decent people mostly, >>> and that merely for their selfish desire of a world worth living >>> in. >>> >> No, this is a bunch of BS. >> > > It's not bullshit. It's just misdirection. If you take out the > subjective language, David just said: > You're right, I jumped the gun. I'm obviously sensitive to what I perceive to be the widespread persecution of the human right to effective self defense --- but that is neither here nor there, and I'm wondering why it was brought up. Perhaps the assumption was made that we're all in the same boat on this subject --- clearly, such is not the case. -Pete From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 21 15:00:20 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:07:44 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <43FB7245.4030101@gazuga.net> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211946.44446.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <43FB7245.4030101@gazuga.net> Message-ID: <200602212000.20180.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 20:04, Peter Bessman wrote: > You're right, I jumped the gun. Arf. > I'm wondering why it was brought up. Perhaps the assumption was made > that we're all in the same boat on this subject --- clearly, such is > not the case. Well, I strongly disagree with you on it -- but let's not go into that. I think you're probably right about the expectation. Chris From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Tue Feb 21 15:12:35 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:12:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <1140552755.346.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 15:05 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > An irony of both open source and free software is that they make it easy > to forget that all software is almost always written by decent humans -- > for example, by implying that proprietary software developers are less > moral and so less significant. If my free software work puts a company > or its developers out of work, then that's a problem for my conscience. > It's not a victory for free software. Yes it is. The world of Free Software (basically the "public domain" for the sake of argument) has been improved, and the world of computer users in general is better off. Free software is about the _users_ (who may also be developers of course), and a free replacement for a proprietary product is most definitely a win for free software, and the world. If someone loses their job because their product was replaced with a superior alternative, well... this is how markets are _supposed_ to work. Inferior product? Bubye! In this case, the product was inferior because of it's closedness (and associated user repression/annoyance/monetary cost/etc), but the reason doesn't really matter. Noone can be blamed for losing their job working on an inferior product but the people who created the product. It's certainly not MY fault it can't compete.. -DR- From ninjadroid at gazuga.net Tue Feb 21 15:13:14 2006 From: ninjadroid at gazuga.net (Peter Bessman) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:13:24 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85irr8lljk.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140536088.5284.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> <85irr8lljk.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <43FB745A.4040008@gazuga.net> David Kastrup wrote: > Pete Bessman writes: > > >> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 11:06 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> >> >>> Pete complains that maybe he has listened too much to Stallman. I am >>> afraid if he did, he did not understand too much. Stallman is not a >>> person who promises superior quality of free software: that would be >>> the panacea of the "Open Software" camp. Stallman says that he >>> refuses to use non-free software for ethical reasons. >>> >> I know what he stands for, I just don't agree with it anymore. I think >> it's illogical, and I think my subconcious always rejected it, and as a >> response to this psychological discomfort, I think I developed a knee- >> jerk "sucks" response to proprietary software. >> >> It's what psychologists call projection. When confronted with a >> shortcoming in yourself, you project that same shortcoming onto others >> so you don't feel like it's totally yours to deal with. You think OSS >> has UI issues? You should see windows! You think dependency hell >> sucks? Well go check out DLL hell! Etc. >> >> Basically, after years of forcing myself to accept a dogma that, upon >> closer inspection, I think is a bunch of baloney, I have a lot of poison >> in my brain that I need to remove so that I can think clearly, calmly, >> and rationally. There are some ex-communists in the libertarian circles >> in which I tread, and they have the same kind of problem WRT Marx and >> communist ideology. And current communists are engaging in projection >> and the like on an awe-inspiring scale. >> >> BTW, this isn't meant to equate OSS with communism. I just want to >> drive home the point that I did not misinterpret one iota of the >> Stallman verse --- I'm just tossing it in the trash bin along with >> my Torah. >> > > Well, what you theatrically toss has not been Stallman's invention at > all. I recommend you search for another scapegoat. He never promised > you a Rosegarden. > > WTF are you smoking? I used to believe in the GNU philosophy, now I don't. Is my metaphor of tossing it in the trashcan somehow unacceptable? And what earthly thing does RMS have to do with Rosegarden? -Pete From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 21 14:58:01 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:28:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140551881.2742.42.camel@mindpipe> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > Who is talking about not paying? This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or stealing, or whatever) commercial software. Lee From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Tue Feb 21 15:36:44 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:44:09 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where =?iso-8859-1?q?do=09*you*?= stand? In-Reply-To: <1140552755.346.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140552755.346.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 20:12, Dave Robillard wrote: > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 15:05 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > If my free software work puts a company or its developers out of > > work, then that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory > > for free software. > > Yes it is. No, the fact of people having been put out of work is not itself a victory for anyone. > The world of Free Software (basically the "public domain" > for the sake of argument) has been improved, and the world of > computer users in general is better off. Sure -- you'd certainly hope that good things are also a consequence of the work, and they go on the other side of the ledger. > If someone loses their job because their product was replaced with a > superior alternative, well... this is how markets are _supposed_ to > work. I'm not in the market. I'm not competing. Because I'm not competing, someone else's failure is not a success for me. Chris From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Tue Feb 21 15:48:59 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Tue Feb 21 15:49:07 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <20060221160626.15C59722561@music.columbia.edu> References: <20060221160626.15C59722561@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: Pete Bessman: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 01:31 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > And here is the sound: > > http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/jack_capture_1.ogg > > > > I'd say its pretty good to be done by an amatour in a hurry. :-) > > Well, that was interesting. I had no idea this program even existed, > but you may be on to something with it. I'll keep a lazy eye on it ;-) Marmelade! The program is 7 years old! :-D Guess I should get a PR agent or something... From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Tue Feb 21 17:30:26 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Tue Feb 21 17:30:52 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602211505.01025.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140552755.346.28.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 20:36 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 20:12, Dave Robillard wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 15:05 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > > If my free software work puts a company or its developers out of > > > work, then that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory > > > for free software. > > > > Yes it is. > > No, the fact of people having been put out of work is not itself a > victory for anyone. Straw man. I never said it was an overall win, just a win for free software. A proprietary program being replaced by a free one is obviously a "win for free software". (Whether it's a good thing overall is a different matter (of opinion)) -DR- From ce at christeck.de Tue Feb 21 18:10:38 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Tue Feb 21 18:08:12 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: =?iso-8859-15?q?Where=09do=09*you*?= stand? In-Reply-To: <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602220010.38470.ce@christeck.de> > > No, the fact of people having been put out of work is not itself a > > victory for anyone. > > Straw man. ?I never said it was an overall win, just a win for free > software. ?A proprietary program being replaced by a free one is > obviously a "win for free software". surely free software can cause unemployed people, but at the same time free software also can cause that closed software vendors benefit in an other way: They simply have to create better products to keep their business running. And after all this helps to secure employments. Just my two cents. Best regards ce From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 18:43:48 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 18:43:51 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140551082.14415.24.camel@eviltwin> (Jan Depner's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 13:44:42 -0600") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140551082.14415.24.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <85mzgkgtvv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Jan Depner writes: > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:41 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> >> If I want Excel running on GNU/Linux, I can just shoot myself. I >> am not paying for such crippled software. If that means that I >> have to do with less sophisticated free software, so be it. It is >> a price to pay, but at least it keeps me in control and power and >> responsibility. >> > > Survey says... BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong. You would buy > Crossover Office and then install a perfectly legal, paid for copy > of Micro$oft Orifice. It runs fine on my system. You'll be surprised to hear that I don't let my personal choices be dictated by survey. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 18:45:01 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 18:45:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140551881.2742.42.camel@mindpipe> (Lee Revell's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 14:58:01 -0500") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140551881.2742.42.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <85irr8gttu.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Lee Revell writes: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> Who is talking about not paying? > > This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or > stealing, or whatever) commercial software. Since there was nobody else in support of that, it is a bit disingenuous to claim that the discussion was still about that. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From dak at gnu.org Tue Feb 21 18:50:14 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Tue Feb 21 18:50:16 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do*you* stand? In-Reply-To: <43FB745A.4040008@gazuga.net> (Peter Bessman's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 15:13:14 -0500") References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140466880.4873.21.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140495348.12459.254859602@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1140496822.6722.123.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xni0e.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140536088.5284.75.camel@localhost.localdomain> <85irr8lljk.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <43FB745A.4040008@gazuga.net> Message-ID: <85ek1wgtl5.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Peter Bessman writes: > David Kastrup wrote: [...] >>> BTW, this isn't meant to equate OSS with communism. I just want to >>> drive home the point that I did not misinterpret one iota of the >>> Stallman verse --- I'm just tossing it in the trash bin along with >>> my Torah. >>> >> >> Well, what you theatrically toss has not been Stallman's invention >> at all. I recommend you search for another scapegoat. He never >> promised you a Rosegarden. > > WTF are you smoking? I used to believe in the GNU philosophy, now I > don't. I don't know what you believed in, but it certainly was not the GNU philosophy. The GNU philosophy is not concerned about quality of software. It is concerned about its availability and freedom. > Is my metaphor of tossing it in the trashcan somehow unacceptable? It's just silly, as you apparently don't have a clue about what you presume to be tossing. More likely the Open Source mantra about OSS being a superior development model. > And what earthly thing does RMS have to do with Rosegarden? It was just a pun. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Tue Feb 21 19:57:55 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Tue Feb 21 19:58:05 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: Lee Revell: > > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> Who is talking about not paying? > > This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or > stealing, or whatever) commercial software. > Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 21 20:01:48 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 21 20:01:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:57 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > Lee Revell: > > > > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >> Who is talking about not paying? > > > > This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or > > stealing, or whatever) commercial software. > > > > Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is > a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, copyright infringement is illegal everywhere that matters. Lee From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Tue Feb 21 20:23:42 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Tue Feb 21 20:23:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Lee Revell wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:57 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: >> Lee Revell: >>> >>> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >>>> Who is talking about not paying? >>> >>> This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or >>> stealing, or whatever) commercial software. >>> >> >> Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is >> a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? >> > > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, > But why do you consider it stealing? > copyright infringement is illegal everywhere that matters. Hmmmmmm. :-( So what do you mean by matters? From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Tue Feb 21 20:51:50 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Tue Feb 21 20:54:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <85mzgkgtvv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140551082.14415.24.camel@eviltwin> <85mzgkgtvv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Message-ID: <1140573110.14415.52.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:43 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > Jan Depner writes: > > > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:41 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >> > >> If I want Excel running on GNU/Linux, I can just shoot myself. I > >> am not paying for such crippled software. If that means that I > >> have to do with less sophisticated free software, so be it. It is > >> a price to pay, but at least it keeps me in control and power and > >> responsibility. > >> > > > > Survey says... BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong. You would buy > > Crossover Office and then install a perfectly legal, paid for copy > > of Micro$oft Orifice. It runs fine on my system. > > You'll be surprised to hear that I don't let my personal choices be > dictated by survey. > I don't understand your response. I was reading your post as saying that Excel wouldn't run on Linux. I was just pointing out that it does run on Linux just fine. I may have been misinterpreting your post though. -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 21 20:56:05 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 21 20:56:10 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:23 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Lee Revell wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:57 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > >> Lee Revell: > >>> > >>> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >>>> Who is talking about not paying? > >>> > >>> This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or > >>> stealing, or whatever) commercial software. > >>> > >> > >> Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is > >> a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? > >> > > > > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > Because you are taking someone's property without paying them for it. If I create something it is my right to sell it or refuse to sell it to anyone. > > > copyright infringement is illegal everywhere that matters. > > Hmmmmmm. :-( > So what do you mean by matters? > I mean that I would not distribute my software in a country that did not have copyright law, because a powerful corporation in such a place could take my GPL'ed code and put it in a proprietary product, or take my proprietary code withoput paying me for it. Just like I would not park my car somewhere where it could be legally stolen (or driven off in, or borrowed, or whatever you call it). Lee From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Tue Feb 21 21:03:02 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Tue Feb 21 21:05:38 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:23 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Lee Revell wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:57 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > >> Lee Revell: > >>> > >>> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: > >>>> Who is talking about not paying? > >>> > >>> This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or > >>> stealing, or whatever) commercial software. > >>> > >> > >> Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is > >> a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? > >> > > > > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult to understand??? -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Tue Feb 21 21:13:41 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Tue Feb 21 21:13:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Lee Revell wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:23 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: >> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Lee Revell wrote: >> >>> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 16:57 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: >>>> Lee Revell: >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >>>>>> Who is talking about not paying? >>>>> >>>>> This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or >>>>> stealing, or whatever) commercial software. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is >>>> a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? >>>> >>> >>> First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, >>> >> >> But why do you consider it stealing? >> > > Because you are taking someone's property without paying them for it. Lets see, taking property. By property, I guess you mean the intellectual property, but isn't what they do exactly, is to copy the intellectual property, not taking it? Because you still have it, perhaps unless someone else claims to be the creator. Well, its just a definition, but I can't agree its stealing. From nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de Tue Feb 21 21:33:27 2006 From: nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de (Joern Nettingsmeier) Date: Tue Feb 21 21:34:20 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] any news concerning the lad site? Message-ID: <43FBCD77.4090000@folkwang-hochschule.de> hi paul, benno, everybody! tried to reach you in private, but haven't heard anything back so far. the lad site has been offline for quite a while now, and i find the entire issue pretty frustrating... it's not exactly what i would call "high availability". :( i'd just write the whole site off if it weren't for the fact that i used to be listed as webmaster and people keep writing to me complaining about broken links. please, someone step up and do something about it. j?rn > hi paul, hi benno! > > > how's the linuxaudiodev.org migration going? it's been offline for > quite a while now, breaking a whole lot of links all over the place. > > benno, why did you remove the stuff before the new location is set > up? and why did you never contact me about the bandwidth usage > problem before? we might have been able to find a less-hurried > solution than taking the entire material offline for a month. i > really appreciate lionstracs' bandwidth donation, but with a little > bit more communication, things would have been a lot less painful. > > can i again ask you again to maintain the > www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/.* redirction to linuxaudiodev.org/{1}? i > know the site is crap and unmaintained, but we have worked hard to > establish it as a repository of audio-related material, and it's > quite good for that. i'd hate to see it fall into google oblivion due > to ever-changing urls. > > paul, it looks like the lac 2006 will again generate metric shitloads > of material - is there some room on your iron for another 10gigs of > videos and audio dumps? if so, how can we organize the upload? i can > put them somewhere at zkm, or you can give me a way to push them up > myself. > > > best, > > j?rn > > > ps: in case any data went into the bit bucket, i have a fairly > up-to-date local mirror. not quite the latest, because my account was > de-activated without notice, but still usable. -- j?rn nettingsmeier home://germany/45128 essen/lortzingstr. 11/ http://spunk.dnsalias.org phone://+49/201/491621 if you are a free (as in "free speech") software developer and you happen to be travelling near my home, drop me a line and come round for a free (as in "free beer") beer. :-D From capocasa at gmx.net Tue Feb 21 22:49:49 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Tue Feb 21 22:50:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [ANN] No More Specimen In-Reply-To: <1140401605.16545.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140401605.16545.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Pete, have you posted to the 'Help Wanted' section on SourceForge.net if somebody is interested in continuing your project? There must be hundred of good coders out there just aching to put their talents to good use, and with a little bit of your leadership... Carlo From idragosani at chapelperilous.net Tue Feb 21 18:02:29 2006 From: idragosani at chapelperilous.net (Brett McCoy) Date: Tue Feb 21 22:59:45 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <43FB9C05.8050009@chapelperilous.net> Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > Lee Revell: > >> >> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 14:08 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> >>> Who is talking about not paying? >> >> >> This whole discussion was ignited when someone advocated pirating (or >> stealing, or whatever) commercial software. >> > > Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation (which is > a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? There are different kinds of copyright violation. For instance, 'unauthorized use' can be public performance (like over a PA system, radio, etc) of something which you don't have permission to do, or making copies of something of something for which you don't permission. And there is what I consider a worse infringement: using copyrighted material created by someone else and claiming it as you own , i.e. plagiarism. Both are stealing in my book. -- Brett From garton at columbia.edu Wed Feb 22 00:16:31 2006 From: garton at columbia.edu (Bradford Garton) Date: Wed Feb 22 00:16:37 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] "free"? "open"? In-Reply-To: <1140551881.2742.42.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <85d5hgn9k4.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140551881.2742.42.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: Yikes -- I thought the original question concerned the merits/demerits of free, but non-source vs. open-source (obviously free) software. Which is sort of an interesting question. I can see valid arguments on both sides, and personally I feel that context plays an important role. But as an academic I'm now required to yell 'context' whenever possible. Of course the discussion rapidly devolved into the tired old 'commercial vs. other' argument, as usual. By the way, I thought the notion of pirating free software was sort of silly... brad From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Wed Feb 22 01:14:20 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Wed Feb 22 01:15:00 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 20:03 -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:23 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > to understand??? to be fair, you are now talking about plagiarism, which encompasses and surpasses copyright infringement. falsely claiming to be the author of someone elses work for some definable gain is not what Kjetil is talking about. Personally, i would define theft as when someone takes something from the owner of that item so that the owner no longer has it. as such, there is a quantifiable difference in the respective outcomes of copyright infringement and theft. which is probably why they called it copyright infringement and not simply theft. in cases of copyright infringement, the owner loses the chance to gain. in instances of theft, the owner is guaranteed a loss. so imo, the distinction between the two terms is merited for quantifiable reasons and stealing is on balance, more serious than copyright infringement. (i'm not talking about counterfitting either) i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. but it's not a trick question. i'm genuinely interested to know your opinon on this as i see no other way for unit based sales of media to thrive without DRM. (assuming copyright infringement is such a serious problem that is) pete. From rlrevell at joe-job.com Wed Feb 22 01:23:19 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Wed Feb 22 01:23:24 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> Message-ID: <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > This is a false dichotomy. > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. Lee From ix at replic.net Wed Feb 22 01:29:30 2006 From: ix at replic.net (cdr) Date: Wed Feb 22 01:29:48 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> Message-ID: <20060222062930.GA9929@replic.net> > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. but it's not a trick at the same time as getting DRM, a flourishing array of unrestricted material as well. plus the good stuff still comes out on vinyl first anyway... when seeing DRM as one of many components in an increasing police-state-ization, the inability to copy an already-lossy copy of some commercial music seems rather trivial. since there are much greater ills going on with only a fringe/marginal level of disgust, i doubt there will be enough disdain against DRM to produce any kind of traffic wrt new linux or CC activity among those who dont already use it, but who knows. maybe 'old money' really does like shooting itself in the foot (when not peppering the face of its hunting partners).. > question. i'm genuinely interested to know your opinon on this as i see > no other way for unit based sales of media to thrive without DRM. > (assuming copyright infringement is such a serious problem that is) it was thriving a lot more before DRM was a glimpse in any Orwell reader's eye From dak at gnu.org Wed Feb 22 03:40:28 2006 From: dak at gnu.org (David Kastrup) Date: Wed Feb 22 03:51:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [linux-audio-user] Re: Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140573110.14415.52.camel@eviltwin> (Jan Depner's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 19:51:50 -0600") References: <20060220203146.E5A6D6FF416@music.columbia.edu> <1140470164.6722.47.camel@mindpipe> <87oe11vhwo.fsf@killalla.dreaming> <1140471831.6722.58.camel@mindpipe> <85ek1xpu55.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <20060220221650.GE4984@linux-1> <85acclps9k.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140551082.14415.24.camel@eviltwin> <85mzgkgtvv.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> <1140573110.14415.52.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <85slqbg51f.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> Jan Depner writes: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 00:43 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> Jan Depner writes: >> >> > On Mon, 2006-02-20 at 23:41 +0100, David Kastrup wrote: >> >> >> >> If I want Excel running on GNU/Linux, I can just shoot myself. I >> >> am not paying for such crippled software. If that means that I >> >> have to do with less sophisticated free software, so be it. It is >> >> a price to pay, but at least it keeps me in control and power and >> >> responsibility. >> >> >> > >> > Survey says... BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZT! Wrong. You would buy >> > Crossover Office and then install a perfectly legal, paid for copy >> > of Micro$oft Orifice. It runs fine on my system. >> >> You'll be surprised to hear that I don't let my personal choices be >> dictated by survey. >> > > I don't understand your response. I was reading your post as > saying that Excel wouldn't run on Linux. I was just pointing out > that it does run on Linux just fine. I may have been > misinterpreting your post though. Whether I pay for a proprietary operating system or a proprietary operating system emulation is pretty much the same: I don't get native Linux, including all widgetry, performance, interprogram communication and so on. -- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Wed Feb 22 04:19:06 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Wed Feb 22 04:19:47 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140599946.5599.268.camel@moon> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 01:23 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > > > This is a false dichotomy. perhaps. but not any less useful a question for it. i deliberately asked which of those two options people would choose because that's exactly what i'm interested in knowing. > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. > > I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. i would fully expect it to fail in the marketplace if the marketplace were immune to external influence and featured no monopolies and cartels. it only takes a few well placed laws written in an RIAA office and enacted on capitol hill then exported around the globe and the marketplace is trumped. but i should watch my language. *i'm personally convinced*, we're gonna get pervasive DRM. pete. who would take widespread copyright infringement over DRM as the lesser of two evils any day. even if it meant not making a living from music. From cannam at all-day-breakfast.com Wed Feb 22 05:32:19 2006 From: cannam at all-day-breakfast.com (Chris Cannam) Date: Wed Feb 22 05:31:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: =?iso-8859-1?q?Where=09do=09*you*?= stand? In-Reply-To: <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602221032.19457.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 22:30, Dave Robillard wrote: > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 20:36 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 20:12, Dave Robillard wrote: > > > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 15:05 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > > > If my free software work puts a company or its developers out of > > > > work, then that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory > > > > for free software. > > > > > > Yes it is. > > > > No, the fact of people having been put out of work is not itself a > > victory for anyone. > > Straw man. I never said it was an overall win, just a win for free > software. Right, and I said it wasn't. That's what you replied to. No straw man. Note though that I'm specifically talking about the failure of the proprietary company, not the success or popularity or quality of the free software alternative -- those good things, sure, celebrate them. It is subjective though, I admit. You could believe anything from "every time a proprietary software company goes out of business for any reason, that's a victory for free software" down. You can naturally argue that its being a victory doesn't depend on whether the people who caused it think that it is. But for my part, I think there is only victory if you think you're participating in competition. What's interesting is that I used this line of argument to explain my preference for "free software" over "open source" (because I think the term emphasises the positive, constructive and human nature of the work rather than an irrelevant businesslike cost/benefit angle) but the people arguing against me also appear to be on the "free software" side. Anyway, I've said more than enough. Chris From hannu at opensound.com Wed Feb 22 06:27:25 2006 From: hannu at opensound.com (Hannu Savolainen) Date: Wed Feb 22 06:46:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > > Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation > > > > > (which is > > > > > a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, > > > > > > > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > > > > > > > Because you are taking someone's property without paying them for it. > > Lets see, taking property. By property, I guess you mean the intellectual > property, but isn't what they do exactly, is to copy the intellectual > property, not taking it? Because you still have it, perhaps unless someone > else claims to be the creator. Well, its just a definition, but I can't agree > its stealing. Work is work regardless of it's type. You cannot think that you use just a copy of someone's work when it's in form of "intellectual property". Instead you are using part of the whole work. Intellectual property is not somathing that drops from the heaven. When you use intellectual property somebody has spent maybe years on creating it. He expects to get paid for that work. Since the price of a copy cannot be too high he would expect to sell certain number of copies (say N). If you are using a "copy" of the work you in fact have stolen 1/Nth of the time author spent when creating it. If you run out from barber's shop without paying it's very clearly a crime. You have stolen 1/N of barber's monthly salary. Is there anything that makes 1/Nth if artist's or programmer's salary less criminal than stealing 1/Nth of barber's salary? If you don't like the model of selling intellectual property then your moral right is to refuse using such work. But I don't think you have any rights to use the work without paying. Best regards, Hannu ----- Hannu Savolainen (hannu@opensound.com) http://www.opensound.com (Open Sound System (OSS)) http://www.compusonic.fi (Finnish OSS pages) OH2GLH QTH: Karkkila, Finland LOC: KP20CM From immanuell at enfocus.be Wed Feb 22 08:13:59 2006 From: immanuell at enfocus.be (Immanuel Litzroth) Date: Wed Feb 22 08:11:45 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: (Hannu Savolainen's message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2006 13:27:25 +0200 (EET)") References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: "Hannu Savolainen" writes: > If you run out from barber's shop without paying it's very clearly a > crime. You have stolen 1/N of barber's monthly salary. Is there anything > that makes 1/Nth if artist's or programmer's salary less criminal than > stealing 1/Nth of barber's salary? This is a laughably simplistic model of economic and social reality. Suppose next to the barber B1 a second barber B2 moves in who is subsidized by the government and can charge lower prices. B1 sees a drop in his wages, so that he cannot afford a haircut anymore, and runs out of B2's shop after having his hair cut. Now B2 comes into B1's shop to have a haircut. Is he guilty of a crime if he runs out or not? >If you don't like the model of selling intellectual property then your >moral right is to refuse using such work. But I don't think you have any >rights to use the work without paying. That is not correct. If you don't like the model of selling intellectual property your "moral right" is not bound by how people who like the model think you should behave. Moreover these things are never about "moral rights" but about how effective the strategy for enforcing your "Intellectual Property" rights is. Immanuel From immanuell at enfocus.be Wed Feb 22 08:21:53 2006 From: immanuell at enfocus.be (Immanuel Litzroth) Date: Wed Feb 22 08:19:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> (Jan Depner's message of "Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:03:02 -0600") References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: "Jan Depner" writes: > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > to understand??? That is plagiarism (maybe) mixed with copyright violation. And I'll send you my latest novel "Why I am a blathering Idiot" this week. Feel free. Immanuel From arnold.krille at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 08:25:42 2006 From: arnold.krille at gmail.com (Arnold Krille) Date: Wed Feb 22 08:25:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> Chiming in, altough i didn't want to... 2006/2/22, Immanuel Litzroth : > "Jan Depner" writes: > > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > > to understand??? > That is plagiarism (maybe) mixed with copyright violation. And I'll send you > my latest novel "Why I am a blathering Idiot" this week. Feel free. > Immanuel If he publishes your novel under his name its _not_ plagiarism, its a copyright-violation and theft. Plagiarism would for example be if he writes his own novel which is the same as yours but with other names for people, places, etc. Btw: Downloading and cracking software that you normally have to pay for is theft... Arnold -- visit http://dillenburg.dyndns.org/~arnold/ --- Wenn man mit Raubkopien Bands wie Brosis oder Britney Spears wirklich verhindern k?nnte, w?rde ich mir noch heute einen Stapel Brenner und einen Sack Rohlinge kaufen. From artemio at kdemail.net Wed Feb 22 09:27:33 2006 From: artemio at kdemail.net (Artemiy Pavlov) Date: Wed Feb 22 09:28:02 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] Hydrogen 0.9.3 released Message-ID: <200602221627.33526.artemio@kdemail.net> The Hydrogen team is pleased to announce the release of Hydrogen version 0.9.3. The new release is immediately available at the Hydrogen web site [http://www.hydrogen-music.org] in source form (binaries should follow soon). 0.9.3 is mostly a bugfix release, but also has some improvements. So what's new in Hydrogen 0.9.3? - Intergated WASP plugins by Artemiy Pavlov, including innovative Booster, Noisifier and X-Shaper - New, much improved color scheme - Fixed various bugs related to Jack audio driver - Fixed 100% CPU usage bug Download Hydrogen: http://www.hydrogen-music.org/?p=download Get a heck-load of new kits: http://www.hydrogen-music.org/?p=drumkits Discuss Hydrogen at our forums: http://www.hydrogen-music.org/forum/ From immanuell at enfocus.be Wed Feb 22 09:39:03 2006 From: immanuell at enfocus.be (Immanuel Litzroth) Date: Wed Feb 22 09:36:45 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> (Arnold Krille's message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2006 14:25:42 +0100") References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: "Arnold Krille" writes: > Chiming in, altough i didn't want to... > > 2006/2/22, Immanuel Litzroth : >> "Jan Depner" writes: >> > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest >> > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as >> > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think >> > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult >> > to understand??? >> That is plagiarism (maybe) mixed with copyright violation. And I'll send you >> my latest novel "Why I am a blathering Idiot" this week. Feel free. >> Immanuel > > If he publishes your novel under his name its _not_ plagiarism, its a > copyright-violation and theft. > Plagiarism would for example be if he writes his own novel which is > the same as yours but with other names for people, places, etc. > You seem to be alone in this opinion. Good luck. Immanuel * the act of appropriating the literary composition of another author, or excerpts, ideas, or passages therefrom, and passing the material off as one's own creation. ucblibraries.colorado.edu/about/glossary.htm * The false presentation of someone else's writing as one's own. In the case of copyrighted work, plagiarism is illegal. www.brochure-design.com/brochure-design-publishing-terms.html * Copying someone else's work and then passing it off as one's own. www.morehead-st.edu/units/library/technology/glossary.html * Taking, using, and passing off as your own, the ideas or words or work of another. www.web-ezy.com/cit/main/webzglos.htm * The willful act of presenting another person's work as one's own. www.athabascau.ca/handbook/glossary.htm * is using another person's ideas or creative work without giving credit to that person. It includes: www.cgcc.cc.or.us/Library/lib-instruction/define-terms.htm * To plagiarize is to take and use another person's thoughts, writings or inventions as one's own, without acknowledging or giving the source of the ideas and expressions. www.umanitoba.ca/student/handbook/sayp.html * Plagiarism is presenting someone else?s work as if it were your own, whether you mean to or not. ?Someone else?s work? means anything that is not your own idea, even if it is presented in your own style. It includes material from books, journals or any other printed source, the work of other students or staff, information from the Internet, software programs and other electronic material, designs and ideas. It also includes the organization or structuring of any such material. ... www.vuw.ac.nz/home/glossary/ * Plagiarism usually uses a slightly varied brand name. The products hidden behind these names do sometimes not even exist in the assortment of the OEM. www.secutag.com/glossary.htm * The submission by a student of the words, ideas, images, or data of another person as the student's own in any academic writing, essay, thesis, research project, or assignment in a course or program of study. www.registrar.ualberta.ca/calendar/Glossary/Information/255.html * A form of cheating by means of the unacknowledged, literal reproduction of ideas and material of other persons in the guise of new and original work. See Policy on Academic Integrity. web.uvic.ca/calendar2005/CAL/TUintC.html * is the passing off as your own, the work of others'. Original sources are not given credit. fixedreference.org/en/20040424/wikipedia/Information_science_glossary_of_terms * Presenting the words or ideas of someone else as your own without proper acknowledgement of the source. www.sunysb.edu/library/tutorial/glossary/ * A form of cheating in which the work of someone else is offered as one?s own. The language or ideas thus taken from another may range from isolated formulae, sentences, or paragraphs, to entire articles copied from printed sources, speeches, software, or the work of other students. www.ipfw.edu/academics/regulations/definitions.shtml * The theft of ideas or of written passages or works, where these are passed off as one?s own work without acknowledgement of their true origin. www.bolton.ac.uk/learning/bissto/glossary/ * Taking information from another source and passing it off as your own. This may be done by not giving credit for a quote or a passage of information or by deliberately copying a written work or downloading a paper from the Internet. www.wcu.edu/library/researchref/Glossary.htm * Failure to give the source of a quotation or paraphrase in which the language, thoughts, or ideas of another person are used as one's own. (Unit 8> Giving Credit Where Credit is Due) www.usg.edu/galileo/skills/ollc_glossary.html * An academic malpractice. Plagiarism is the use of the ideas, words or findings of others without acknowledging them as such. To plagiarise is to give the impression that the student has written, thought or discovered something that he or she has in fact borrowed from someone else without acknowledging this in an appropriate manner. www.keele.ac.uk/depts/aa/regulationshandbook/sectiond.htm * To appropriate the writings, graphic representations or ideas of another person and represent them as one's own, (that is, without proper attribution). Plagiarism is a form of intellectual property violation. www.unmc.edu/ethics/words.html * Copying another person's work - claiming it as yours - without written acknowledgment to the original writer. Plagiarism is cause for dismissal in most universities. This page discusses UMD's policies. www.d.umn.edu/lib/reference/skills/vocab.html * Using the ideas or words of others without acknowledging the source. This is true even if the ideas of someone else are paraphrased or summarized. In scholarly research, plagiarism is considered unethical and dishonest. www.pddoc.com/copyright/glossary.htm * Taking ideas or content from an author and portraying those ideas or content as your own. www.library.wwu.edu/ref/howtoguides/glossary.html * Passing off someone else's work as your own. You must follow certain guidelines to properly acknowledge the use of other people's ideas in your work. The guidelines vary by academic discipline and by institution, and you should ask your instructor if you have any questions about the proper citation of sources. This is considered a serious offense at every institution, and can result in permanent expulsion from the class, and in some cases from the college. Cite your sources properly! www.netnet.org/students/student%20glossary.htm * You must cite all sources used in a particular work. If you do not acknowledge these sources, then you are plagiarising their work. Plagiarism is defined as the taking, using, and passing off as your own, the ideas or words of another. It is a very serious academic offence, and may result in your work being failed automatically. www.rmit.edu.au/browse/Our%20Organisation%2FRMIT%20University%20Library%2FInfo-trek%2FJargon%20Explorer/ * Plagiarism is the use of someone else?s work without giving that person the proper credit or no attribution at all (-Y?Important Terms?). www.uah.edu/library/turnitin/studentterm.htm * a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work * the act of plagiarizing; taking someone's words or ideas as if they were your own wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn * Plagiarism refers to the use of another's ideas, information, language, or writing, when done without proper acknowledgment of the original source. Essential to an act of plagiarism is an element of dishonesty in attempting to pass off the plagiarised work as original. Plagiarism is not necessarily the same as copyright infringement, which occurs when one violates copyright law. ... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagiarism From arnold.krille at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 10:02:05 2006 From: arnold.krille at gmail.com (Arnold Krille) Date: Wed Feb 22 10:02:09 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2def88b80602220702m3ee0a68agd89c7f6fb12d0c24@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/22, Immanuel Litzroth : > You seem to be alone in this opinion. Good luck. > Immanuel I stand corrected by such a mass of facts... Arnold -- visit http://dillenburg.dyndns.org/~arnold/ --- Wenn man mit Raubkopien Bands wie Brosis oder Britney Spears wirklich verhindern k?nnte, w?rde ich mir noch heute einen Stapel Brenner und einen Sack Rohlinge kaufen. From rlrevell at joe-job.com Wed Feb 22 14:00:47 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Wed Feb 22 14:00:53 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140634847.2851.29.camel@mindpipe> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 13:13 +0000, Immanuel Litzroth wrote: > "Hannu Savolainen" writes: > > > > If you run out from barber's shop without paying it's very clearly a > > crime. You have stolen 1/N of barber's monthly salary. Is there anything > > that makes 1/Nth if artist's or programmer's salary less criminal than > > stealing 1/Nth of barber's salary? > > This is a laughably simplistic model of economic and social > reality. Suppose next to the barber B1 a second barber B2 moves in who > is subsidized by the government and can charge lower prices. B1 sees a > drop in his wages, so that he cannot afford a haircut anymore, and > runs out of B2's shop after having his hair cut. Now B2 comes into > B1's shop to have a haircut. Is he guilty of a crime if he runs out or > not? They are both guilty, as they both ran out. And this is a pretty good argument that the government should not subsidize barbers ;-) Lee From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Wed Feb 22 15:36:06 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Wed Feb 22 15:40:41 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <200602221032.19457.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602221032.19457.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> Message-ID: <1140640566.10875.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Wed, 2006-22-02 at 10:32 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 22:30, Dave Robillard wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 20:36 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > > On Tuesday 21 Feb 2006 20:12, Dave Robillard wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2006-21-02 at 15:05 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > > > > If my free software work puts a company or its developers out of > > > > > work, then that's a problem for my conscience. It's not a victory > > > > > for free software. > > > > > > > > Yes it is. > > > > > > No, the fact of people having been put out of work is not itself a > > > victory for anyone. > > > > Straw man. I never said it was an overall win, just a win for free > > software. > > Right, and I said it wasn't. That's what you replied to. No straw man. [snip] > Anyway, I've said more than enough. Havn't we all... :) -DR- From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Wed Feb 22 22:24:43 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Wed Feb 22 22:27:31 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> Message-ID: <1140665083.25407.36.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 20:03 -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > > On Tue, 2006-02-21 at 17:23 -0800, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > > to understand??? > > to be fair, you are now talking about plagiarism, which encompasses and > surpasses copyright infringement. falsely claiming to be the author > of someone elses work for some definable gain is not what Kjetil is > talking about. > Wrong. Legally, without copyright there is no plagiarism (morally there is). If you do not copyright and you place in the public domain I can do anything I want with what you have written. But even excepting that, how about I don't put my name on it but Britney Spears (gag) likes it and makes it her latest hit and she rakes in a couple of million on it. Sorry, no copyright, no money. Is this not theft of the most heinous sort? > > Personally, i would define theft as when someone takes something from > the owner of that item so that the owner no longer has it. > as such, there is a quantifiable difference in the respective outcomes > of copyright infringement and theft. which is probably why they called > it copyright infringement and not simply theft. > in cases of copyright infringement, the owner loses the chance to gain. > in instances of theft, the owner is guaranteed a loss. > > > so imo, the distinction between the two terms is merited for > quantifiable reasons and stealing is on balance, more serious than > copyright infringement. (i'm not talking about counterfitting either) > > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. but it's not a trick > question. i'm genuinely interested to know your opinon on this as i see > no other way for unit based sales of media to thrive without DRM. > (assuming copyright infringement is such a serious problem that is) > I really think that DRM is a dead issue. Media companies will place it on their product, when the general unwashed public finds that they can't play their CD/DVD/whatever wherever they feel like there will be a huge backlash. These companies cannot piss off their customers too much without losing them. Historically this has always been the case with disruptive technologies. Check out the history of Henry Ford and the patents on automobile engines (including lawsuits of Ford customers over patent infringement in their Ford motors). -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Wed Feb 22 22:25:46 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Wed Feb 22 22:28:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140665146.25407.38.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 01:23 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > > > This is a false dichotomy. > > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. > > I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. > Damn, Lee, we're agreeing on everything except real-time. This is not normal for us ;-) -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Wed Feb 22 22:29:47 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Wed Feb 22 22:32:27 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573365.2742.120.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140665387.25407.42.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 13:27 +0200, Hannu Savolainen wrote: > On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Kjetil S. Matheussen wrote: > > > > > > > Why don't you want to distinct between copyright violation > > > > > > (which is > > > > > > a gray area, different from country to country) and stealing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First, because I personally do consider it stealing, and second, > > > > > > > > > > > > > But why do you consider it stealing? > > > > > > > > > > Because you are taking someone's property without paying them for it. > > > > Lets see, taking property. By property, I guess you mean the intellectual > > property, but isn't what they do exactly, is to copy the intellectual > > property, not taking it? Because you still have it, perhaps unless someone > > else claims to be the creator. Well, its just a definition, but I can't agree > > its stealing. > Work is work regardless of it's type. You cannot think that you use just a > copy of someone's work when it's in form of "intellectual property". > Instead you are using part of the whole work. > > Intellectual property is not somathing that drops from the heaven. When > you use intellectual property somebody has spent maybe years on creating > it. He expects to get paid for that work. Since the price of a copy cannot > be too high he would expect to sell certain number of copies (say N). If > you are using a "copy" of the work you in fact have stolen 1/Nth of > the time author spent when creating it. > > If you run out from barber's shop without paying it's very clearly a > crime. You have stolen 1/N of barber's monthly salary. Is there anything > that makes 1/Nth if artist's or programmer's salary less criminal than > stealing 1/Nth of barber's salary? > > If you don't like the model of selling intellectual property then your > moral right is to refuse using such work. But I don't think you have any > rights to use the work without paying. > Great analogy! That's it exactly. -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Wed Feb 22 22:31:55 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Wed Feb 22 22:34:34 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <1140665515.25407.44.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 13:21 +0000, Immanuel Litzroth wrote: > "Jan Depner" writes: > > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > > to understand??? > > That is plagiarism (maybe) mixed with copyright violation. And I'll send you > my latest novel "Why I am a blathering Idiot" this week. Feel free. Your lack of talent isn't really my problem. Oh, BTW, the word is "blithering". -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Wed Feb 22 22:34:46 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Wed Feb 22 22:37:24 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1140665687.25407.47.camel@eviltwin> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 14:39 +0000, Immanuel Litzroth wrote: > "Arnold Krille" writes: > > > Chiming in, altough i didn't want to... > > > > 2006/2/22, Immanuel Litzroth : > >> "Jan Depner" writes: > >> > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > >> > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > >> > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > >> > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > >> > to understand??? > >> That is plagiarism (maybe) mixed with copyright violation. And I'll send you > >> my latest novel "Why I am a blathering Idiot" this week. Feel free. > >> Immanuel > > > > If he publishes your novel under his name its _not_ plagiarism, its a > > copyright-violation and theft. > > Plagiarism would for example be if he writes his own novel which is > > the same as yours but with other names for people, places, etc. > > > > You seem to be alone in this opinion. Good luck. Let me cut out the useless information and point out to you that without copyright there is no plagiarism. If you place your work in the public domain I am free to use any or all of it in any work I do without attribution. Immoral? Yes. Unethical? Yes. Downright mean and nasty? Yes. Illegal? No. -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Thu Feb 23 03:20:57 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Thu Feb 23 03:21:17 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Free Software vs. Open Source: Where do *you* stand? In-Reply-To: <1140640566.10875.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1140465353.5284.39.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602212036.45073.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140561026.4529.22.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602221032.19457.cannam@all-day-breakfast.com> <1140640566.10875.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140682857.7295.6.camel@dsl-62-3-104-34.zen.co.uk> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 15:36 -0500, Dave Robillard wrote: > On Wed, 2006-22-02 at 10:32 +0000, Chris Cannam wrote: > > Anyway, I've said more than enough. > > Havn't we all... :) > > -DR- yeah but, no but, yeah but, no.. pete. From immanuell at enfocus.be Thu Feb 23 05:09:48 2006 From: immanuell at enfocus.be (Immanuel Litzroth) Date: Thu Feb 23 05:07:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140665687.25407.47.camel@eviltwin> (Jan Depner's message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:34:46 -0600") References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <2def88b80602220525m70572e38tc3bb68b5015c9ad1@mail.gmail.com> <1140665687.25407.47.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: "Jan Depner" writes: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 14:39 +0000, Immanuel Litzroth wrote: >> "Arnold Krille" writes: > > Let me cut out the useless information and point out to you that > without copyright there is no plagiarism. Wrong. What you are trying to say is tha plagiarism is not legally punishable. > If you place your work in the > public domain I am free to use any or all of it in any work I do without > attribution. Immoral? Yes. Unethical? Yes. Downright mean and > nasty? Yes. Illegal? No. Plagiarism? Yes. Immanuel From immanuell at enfocus.be Thu Feb 23 05:23:46 2006 From: immanuell at enfocus.be (Immanuel Litzroth) Date: Thu Feb 23 05:21:26 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140665515.25407.44.camel@eviltwin> (Jan Depner's message of "Wed, 22 Feb 2006 21:31:55 -0600") References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140665515.25407.44.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: "Jan Depner" writes: > > I just can't resist this. Please send me a copy of your latest > > song, novel, whatever. I'll post it on the internet with my name as > > author then we'll come back to this discussion of why Lee and I think > > that copyright infringement is stealing. Is this really that difficult > > to understand??? The point is that putting your name on it is not necessary to be guilty of copyright infringement if the work is copyrighted. > Your lack of talent isn't really my problem. Oh, BTW, the word is > "blithering". Thanks. That will improve the intellectual level of the work greatly. Immanuel From rzewnickie at rfa.org Thu Feb 23 15:46:16 2006 From: rzewnickie at rfa.org (Eric Dantan Rzewnicki) Date: Thu Feb 23 15:46:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) In-Reply-To: <4421E9B6@zathras> References: <4421E9B6@zathras> Message-ID: <20060223204616.GF30365@rfa.org> What type of hosting service does linuxaudio.org have now in terms of space, bandwidth, accesibility of physical site admins and access for remote site maintainers? On Sat, Feb 18, 2006 at 09:51:31PM -0500, ico wrote: > Hi all, > > A couple days ago I sent an e-mail on this topic due to some initial positive > feedback, yet not much has happened since... (it may very well be that a lot > of people are very busy with LAC preparations (-: ). At any rate, please allow > me to reiterate what I've mentioned before in hope that this time it may > elicit some fruitful discussion on this IMHO very important topic. > > Best, > > Ico > > BEGIN-OLD-MESSAGE > > It appears to me that there were at least a few members of the LAD/LAU list > who have expressed interest in having LAD site somehow integrated in the > Linuxaudio.org. I believe that this would be a very encouraging step towards > consolidating online LA resources into one site which would IMHO ultimately > make LA users' lives a lot easier as well as make the overall LA scene look > more professional to the outsiders/potential adopters. I see this kind of an > idea as a first step towards a much more demanding goal--integration of other > online resources, i.e. Dave's LA software page. I could see this integration > happening via a single Wiki page that would contain detailed > info/screenshots/documentation/mailing-list and other pertinent info for every > LA software available out there. Naturally, linking these lists is also a > possibility, yet the very thought of having one place with unified appearance > that would provide all the necessary info, including documentation, > application-specific mailing lists etc. seems IMHO truly inspiring. > > Such a project obviously bears a huge overhead. I can also see devs objecting > to the redundancy of information that may be already available on their > software's dedicated website. The solution to both problems would be asking > devs and/or their project maintainers/helpers to assist with the generation of > their software's Wiki page which should adhere to certain predetermined > standards and then also providing a link to their original project's page. > Yes, there would be some redundancy, but a vast number of projects could > greatly benefit from such a consolidation, including one of the most > important, yet often neglected aspects--proper documentation. > > For this reason, I would like to use this opportunity to possibly elicit a > discussion on this matter and hopefully get the ball rolling :-). > > END-OLD-MESSAGE -- Eric Dantan Rzewnicki | Systems Administrator Technical Operations Division | Radio Free Asia 2025 M Street, NW | Washington, DC 20036 | 202-530-4900 CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION This e-mail message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any unauthorized dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please contact network@rfa.org. From conrad.berhoerster at gmx.de Thu Feb 23 15:55:20 2006 From: conrad.berhoerster at gmx.de (conrad =?iso-8859-1?q?berh=F6rster?=) Date: Thu Feb 23 15:57:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] owner of init scripts // LASH Message-ID: <200602232155.23754.conrad.berhoerster@gmx.de> Hello all, i try to set up my audiobox and playing a little bit with realtime audio. Today I want to setup a start script, so that jack (and some other apps) starting, immedately after bootup. First question: is the init script the right place, or should i use LASH. Second (and originate) question: if i start from xterm as normal user bash-3.00$ set_rlimits -r jackd --realtime -d alsa & everything is perfect. but if i startet the same command in .xsession, i will get the following ---------------------- schnipp ---------- nperiods = 2 for playback JACK: unable to mlock() port buffers: Cannot allocate memory cannot use real-time scheduling (FIFO at priority 20) [for thread 49156, from th read 49156] (1: Operation not permitted) cannot use real-time scheduling (FIFO at priority 10) [for thread 65541, from th read 65541] (1: Operation not permitted) ---- schnipp ------------------- is the .xsession script running as a different user? any comments are welcome thanks c~ From ico at vt.edu Thu Feb 23 16:12:09 2006 From: ico at vt.edu (ico) Date: Thu Feb 23 16:13:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) Message-ID: <440294AC@zathras> >===== Original Message From Eric Dantan Rzewnicki ===== >What type of hosting service does linuxaudio.org have now in terms of >space, bandwidth, accesibility of physical site admins and access for >remote site maintainers? Currently, the server hosting Linuxaudio.org has been arranged by Daniel James, so my guess is that it is hosted somewhere in UK, other info is unknown to me (ironically the site is currently inaccessible for whatever reason). Daniel? That being said, in my department (Virginia Tech) I've got an ok to offer hosting for LA purposes which would mean direct physical access to the mainframe, virtually unlimited data storage (I am not sure how much we have right now but we should have probably close to 1TB and there is plenty of empty slots left on the mainframe for more disks to be added), and most importantly unlimited bandwidth (although the actual outgoing line is limited to 100MBit from the node where the mainframe is, but the actual monthly bandwidth is unlimited). Finally, all data is backed-up weekly with one backup always being off-site in the case server melts down, dissapears, decides to grow legs and walk away, or whatever. Hope this helps! Best wishes, Ico From rzewnickie at rfa.org Thu Feb 23 20:25:42 2006 From: rzewnickie at rfa.org (Eric Dantan Rzewnicki) Date: Thu Feb 23 20:26:03 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) In-Reply-To: <440294AC@zathras> References: <440294AC@zathras> Message-ID: <20060224012542.GH30365@rfa.org> On Thu, Feb 23, 2006 at 04:12:09PM -0500, ico wrote: > >===== Original Message From Eric Dantan Rzewnicki ===== > >What type of hosting service does linuxaudio.org have now in terms of > >space, bandwidth, accesibility of physical site admins and access for > >remote site maintainers? > > Currently, the server hosting Linuxaudio.org has been arranged by Daniel > James, so my guess is that it is hosted somewhere in UK, other info is unknown > to me (ironically the site is currently inaccessible for whatever reason). > Daniel? > > That being said, in my department (Virginia Tech) I've got an ok to offer > hosting for LA purposes which would mean direct physical access to the > mainframe, virtually unlimited data storage (I am not sure how much we have > right now but we should have probably close to 1TB and there is plenty of > empty slots left on the mainframe for more disks to be added), and most > importantly unlimited bandwidth (although the actual outgoing line is limited > to 100MBit from the node where the mainframe is, but the actual monthly > bandwidth is unlimited). Finally, all data is backed-up weekly with one backup > always being off-site in the case server melts down, dissapears, decides to > grow legs and walk away, or whatever. > > Hope this helps! > > Best wishes, I also have a standing ok to offer RFA resources and bandwidth for Linux Audio stuff as well. Though at first impression I'm thinking an academic sponsor might be better for all concerned. If needed space and bandwidth are available here. I don't always have time to follow the lists, so mail me directly if I can be of service in this regard. -- Eric Dantan Rzewnicki | Systems Administrator Technical Operations Division | Radio Free Asia 2025 M Street, NW | Washington, DC 20036 | 202-530-4900 CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION This e-mail message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any unauthorized dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please contact network@rfa.org. From b0ef at esben-stien.name Fri Feb 24 10:15:52 2006 From: b0ef at esben-stien.name (Esben Stien) Date: Fri Feb 24 08:25:58 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources In-Reply-To: <20060224012542.GH30365@rfa.org> (Eric Dantan Rzewnicki's message of "Thu, 23 Feb 2006 20:25:42 -0500") References: <440294AC@zathras> <20060224012542.GH30365@rfa.org> Message-ID: <87slq84wk7.fsf@esben-stien.name> Eric Dantan Rzewnicki writes: > resources and bandwidth for Linux Audio stuff Why not grab this excellent opportunity to call it gnu audio. Should we have a different one for gnu/hurd audio when we start running that?;). -- Esben Stien is b0ef@e s a http://www. s t n m irc://irc. b - i . e/%23contact [sip|iax]: e e jid:b0ef@ n n From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Fri Feb 24 09:04:42 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Fri Feb 24 09:04:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources In-Reply-To: <87slq84wk7.fsf@esben-stien.name> References: <440294AC@zathras> <20060224012542.GH30365@rfa.org> <87slq84wk7.fsf@esben-stien.name> Message-ID: <1140789882.8353.5.camel@dsl-62-3-104-34.zen.co.uk> On Fri, 2006-02-24 at 16:15 +0100, Esben Stien wrote: > Eric Dantan Rzewnicki writes: > > > resources and bandwidth for Linux Audio stuff > > Why not grab this excellent opportunity to call it gnu audio. Should > we have a different one for gnu/hurd audio when we start running > that?;). well, it's not all GNU so some might object to that. we could switch to Nix Audio but i'm not sure how many people would want to be part of that community.. instead of lads, we'd be nads. ;) pete. -- ====================== paugh on irc.freenode.org in #sweep, #lad kickback@users.sourceforge.net ====================== From asbjs at stud.ntnu.no Fri Feb 24 10:19:49 2006 From: asbjs at stud.ntnu.no (=?iso-8859-1?B?QXNiavhybiBT5mL4?=) Date: Fri Feb 24 10:19:54 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack.udp and synchronisation Message-ID: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> jack.udp may be used to transmit audio between two computers, each computer running their own jackd. My understanding, based upon earlier threads in the linux audio lists, is that to avoid xruns due to clock drift in this situation, the sound cards of the two computers must be synchronised in some way, e.g. using word clock. Is this (still) correct? Or has jack.udp been developed to include synchronisation? (On a side note, it seems that Rohan Drape's web pages that are linked to from the jack pages, http://www.alphalink.com.au/~rd/sw/jack.html, have disappeared.) Asbj?rn S?b? From torbenh at gmx.de Fri Feb 24 13:22:44 2006 From: torbenh at gmx.de (torbenh@gmx.de) Date: Fri Feb 24 13:28:09 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack.udp and synchronisation In-Reply-To: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> References: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> Message-ID: <20060224182244.GA9884@mobilat> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 04:19:49PM +0100, Asbj?rn S?b? wrote: > jack.udp may be used to transmit audio between two computers, each > computer running their own jackd. > > My understanding, based upon earlier threads in the linux audio lists, > is that to avoid xruns due to clock drift in this situation, the sound > cards of the two computers must be synchronised in some way, e.g. using > word clock. > > Is this (still) correct? Or has jack.udp been developed to include > synchronisation? > > > (On a side note, it seems that Rohan Drape's web pages that are linked > to from the jack pages, http://www.alphalink.com.au/~rd/sw/jack.html, > have disappeared.) http://netjack.sourceforge.net is there to fill this gap... -- torben Hohn http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language From rzewnickie at rfa.org Fri Feb 24 14:16:39 2006 From: rzewnickie at rfa.org (Eric Dantan Rzewnicki) Date: Fri Feb 24 14:16:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) In-Reply-To: <43FED525.3080007@linuxaudio.org> References: <440294AC@zathras> <43FED525.3080007@linuxaudio.org> Message-ID: <20060224191639.GA30489@rfa.org> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 09:43:01AM +0000, Daniel James wrote: > Hi Ico, hi Eric, > >That being said, in my department (Virginia Tech) I've got an ok to offer > >hosting for LA purposes which would mean direct physical access to the > >mainframe, virtually unlimited data storage (I am not sure how much we > >have right now but we should have probably close to 1TB and there is > >plenty of empty slots left on the mainframe for more disks to be added), > >and most importantly unlimited bandwidth > > That would be a great improvement, and would allow us to host or stream > a lot of music files or offer software downloads. I can easily set up > linuxaudio.org DNS to point to that. I notice Joern's mail concerning moving linuxdj content to linuxaudiodev.org and that somehow involving Paul ... I've been a little out of the loop lately. Can someone sketch in the current state of the various sites Ico is proposing to consolidate? -- Eric Dantan Rzewnicki | Systems Administrator Technical Operations Division | Radio Free Asia 2025 M Street, NW | Washington, DC 20036 | 202-530-4900 CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION This e-mail message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any unauthorized dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please contact network@rfa.org. From steve at k-hornz.de Fri Feb 24 14:22:12 2006 From: steve at k-hornz.de (stefan kersten) Date: Fri Feb 24 14:22:23 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack.udp and synchronisation In-Reply-To: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> References: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> Message-ID: <20060224192212.GA4715@localdomain> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 04:19:49PM +0100, Asbj?rn S?b? wrote: > (On a side note, it seems that Rohan Drape's web pages that are linked > to from the jack pages, http://www.alphalink.com.au/~rd/sw/jack.html, > have disappeared.) rohan moved to http://slavepianos.org/rd/ From torbenh at gmx.de Fri Feb 24 14:20:19 2006 From: torbenh at gmx.de (torbenh@gmx.de) Date: Fri Feb 24 14:25:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Guitar Rig 2 for Linux In-Reply-To: <1140481988.4408.72.camel@bluefred> References: <1140481988.4408.72.camel@bluefred> Message-ID: <20060224192019.GB9884@mobilat> On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 04:33:08PM -0800, Michael Ost wrote: > We are interested in getting the new Guitar Rig 2 USB foot controller > supported in Linux/Wine. It's described here: > > http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=guitarrig2_us > > I assume from looking at it, that a USB driver would be required and > then perhaps some Wine tweaks to let the plugin open the USB driver. > > Anyone interested in taking this on? We are hoping to do this as a trade > --- like you do this work and get a Receptor and/or some VST plugins for > your time. this sounds very interesting. isnt the guitar rig only an audio/midi card from the computer side ? what does lsusb say ? what information about the hardware will be available ? i cant find hardware info about it. if i would have designed it it would be some generic audio/midi chip with some midi talking logic on a pcb. they are a software company, they cant brew their own hardware, thats too expensive.. although it should be quite cool to use the rig kontrol as a dongle :) > > BTW, we also have a job opening, posted here: > > http://www.craigslist.org/pen/sof/132110028.html fst, netjack... i can almost build my own receptor ;) but i cant move away from here, and got a full-time job, which would cost like EUR3000 a month if another one would do it.. otherwise i would surely like to work with you guys. > > Thanks ... mo > > =================================== > Michael Ost, Software Architect > Muse Research, Inc. > most@museresearch.com > > -- torben Hohn http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language From torbenh at gmx.de Fri Feb 24 16:30:25 2006 From: torbenh at gmx.de (torbenh@gmx.de) Date: Fri Feb 24 16:35:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Guitar Rig 2 for Linux In-Reply-To: <20060224192019.GB9884@mobilat> References: <1140481988.4408.72.camel@bluefred> <20060224192019.GB9884@mobilat> Message-ID: <20060224213025.GA8604@mobilat> wupps :( just noticed when i pressed send... On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 08:20:19PM +0100, torbenh@gmx.de wrote: > On Mon, Feb 20, 2006 at 04:33:08PM -0800, Michael Ost wrote: > > We are interested in getting the new Guitar Rig 2 USB foot controller > > supported in Linux/Wine. It's described here: > > > > http://www.native-instruments.com/index.php?id=guitarrig2_us > > > > I assume from looking at it, that a USB driver would be required and > > then perhaps some Wine tweaks to let the plugin open the USB driver. > > > > Anyone interested in taking this on? We are hoping to do this as a trade > > --- like you do this work and get a Receptor and/or some VST plugins for > > your time. > > this sounds very interesting. > isnt the guitar rig only an audio/midi card from the computer side ? > > what does lsusb say ? > what information about the hardware will be available ? > > i cant find hardware info about it. > if i would have designed it it would be some generic audio/midi chip > with some midi talking logic on a pcb. > they are a software company, they cant brew their own hardware, thats > too expensive.. > > although it should be quite cool to use the rig kontrol as a dongle :) > > > > > BTW, we also have a job opening, posted here: > > > > > http://www.craigslist.org/pen/sof/132110028.html > > fst, netjack... i can almost build my own receptor ;) > but i cant move away from here, and got a full-time job, which > would cost like EUR3000 a month if another one would do it.. > > otherwise i would surely like to work with you guys. > > > > Thanks ... mo > > > > =================================== > > Michael Ost, Software Architect > > Muse Research, Inc. > > most@museresearch.com > > > > > > -- > torben Hohn > http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language > -- torben Hohn http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language From james at dis-dot-dat.net Fri Feb 24 20:14:03 2006 From: james at dis-dot-dat.net (james@dis-dot-dat.net) Date: Fri Feb 24 20:02:39 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Which widgets? Message-ID: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Hello all. I've always steered clear of writing GUIs, so my experience is pretty limited. But now I find myself needing a toolkit/widget set. What's recommended? I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the window. I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a button, either. And something that's installed as default in most distros would be good, too. So, what I want is everything. And it should be simple, too. Any suggestions? James -- "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree, Virginia Power) From mle+la at mega-nerd.com Fri Feb 24 20:56:43 2006 From: mle+la at mega-nerd.com (Erik de Castro Lopo) Date: Fri Feb 24 20:56:52 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <20060225125643.316d9c81.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> james@dis-dot-dat.net wrote: > I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to > C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the > window. I'm sure that I dislike C++ even more than you do and I can completely understand why you'd want to keep you app as C. However, GUIs is actually one of the few applications where IMHO C++ may actually have some benefits over C. It would definitely be possible to do a C++ GUI which communicates with a C backend but it would be necessay place a clothes peg over one's nose while doing the C++ stuff. That said, I have done GUIs in GTK+ (which is C) and it is doable, especially if you spend some time wrapping the the GTK+ trivialities into something more managable. So for instance, it you need 5 buttons that are basically the same bar button names etc, instead of doing button1 = gtk_new_button("button1 name") ; gtk_fiddle_with (button1) ; button2 = gtk_new_button("button1 name") ; gtk_fiddle_with (button2) ; ... button5 = gtk_new_button("button1 name") ; gtk_fiddle_with (button5) ; do something like: struct button_s { const char * name ; int xpos, ypos, xsize, ysize ; } ; static struct button_s deez_buttons [] = { { "button1_name", 0, 0, 20, 20 }, { "button2_name", 0, 0, 20, 20 }, { "button3_name", 0, 0, 20, 20 }, { "button4_name", 0, 0, 20, 20 }, { "button5_name", 0, 0, 20, 20 } } ; and then write a function that takes an array of button_s structs and does whatever is required to make them happen. I also like to have all button messages pass back through one callback. Each button will have a unique identifier so that in the callback I can just switch on the button identifier. This can easily be extended to have all GUI callbacks passing through the one callback function and them make the whole thing a model controller view thing. > I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a > button, either. Most GUI widget toolkits have a huge set of dependancies regardless :-). GTK+ is no different in this regard. > And something that's installed as default in most distros would be > good, too. GTK+ is shipped with most distros. Erik -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ Erik de Castro Lopo +-----------------------------------------------------------+ "Perl as a language has less a design than a thousand special features flying in close formation." -- From the c2 wiki From larsl at users.sourceforge.net Fri Feb 24 21:02:56 2006 From: larsl at users.sourceforge.net (Lars Luthman) Date: Fri Feb 24 21:02:06 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <1140832976.8864.9.camel@c213-100-50-8.swipnet.se> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 01:14 +0000, james@dis-dot-dat.net wrote: > I've always steered clear of writing GUIs, so my experience is pretty > limited. But now I find myself needing a toolkit/widget set. > > What's recommended? I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to > C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the > window. > > I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a > button, either. > > And something that's installed as default in most distros would be > good, too. > > So, what I want is everything. And it should be simple, too. For simplicity, try Gtk+ with libglade and build the GUI in Glade2. Personally I think gtkmm is a lot nicer, but if you don't like C++ you probably won't agree. -- Lars Luthman PGP key: http://www.student.nada.kth.se/~d00-llu/pgp_key.php Fingerprint: FCA7 C790 19B9 322D EB7A E1B3 4371 4650 04C7 7E2E -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/attachments/20060225/f86567a1/attachment.bin From ico at vt.edu Fri Feb 24 23:14:45 2006 From: ico at vt.edu (ico) Date: Fri Feb 24 23:14:51 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources (was: linuxdj...) Message-ID: <44127A87@zathras> >===== Original Message From Eric Dantan Rzewnicki ===== >On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 09:43:01AM +0000, Daniel James wrote: >> Hi Ico, hi Eric, >> >That being said, in my department (Virginia Tech) I've got an ok to offer >> >hosting for LA purposes which would mean direct physical access to the >> >mainframe, virtually unlimited data storage (I am not sure how much we >> >have right now but we should have probably close to 1TB and there is >> >plenty of empty slots left on the mainframe for more disks to be added), >> >and most importantly unlimited bandwidth >> >> That would be a great improvement, and would allow us to host or stream >> a lot of music files or offer software downloads. I can easily set up >> linuxaudio.org DNS to point to that. > >I notice Joern's mail concerning moving linuxdj content to >linuxaudiodev.org and that somehow involving Paul ... I've been a little >out of the loop lately. Can someone sketch in the current state of the >various sites Ico is proposing to consolidate? In a nutshell, the lad site is being moved to Paul's server but the domain continues (at least for the time being) to be inaccessible. Another consideration is the .com extension current linuxdj has which may be something worth discussing, especially considering that most of the LA software is not of corporate origin. As far as my proposition is concerned, you are the first one expressing any interest in it... Regarding moving Linuxaudio.org, I'd be more than happy to provide space for such a move as well as any other Web-related Linuxaudio.org incentives, including potential consolidation of project summaries into one Wiki meta-resource, as suggested in my earlier e-mail. Best wishes, Ico From loki.davison at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 00:00:04 2006 From: loki.davison at gmail.com (Loki Davison) Date: Sat Feb 25 00:00:08 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: On 2/25/06, james@dis-dot-dat.net wrote: > Hello all. > > I've always steered clear of writing GUIs, so my experience is pretty > limited. But now I find myself needing a toolkit/widget set. > > What's recommended? I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to > C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the > window. > > I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a > button, either. > > And something that's installed as default in most distros would be > good, too. > > So, what I want is everything. And it should be simple, too. > > Any suggestions? > > James > > -- > "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development > That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." > (By Vance Petree, Virginia Power) > You can check out smack's very simple former gui (still in svn but disabled) or any dssi gui many are written in gtk and are nice examples to learn from. In smack's gui i create a grouping widget so i don't have to cope with cruft for each extra row of buttons. Loki From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 04:52:15 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 04:52:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Portable C++ MIDI libraries review Message-ID: Hi, I've had the pleasure and misfortune to test both of the widely known portable MIDI libraries, and now believe I have found one that works to my satisfaction. This is not a quantifiable review with benchmarking but the subjective experience of someone who has implemented a very simple yet nonetheless professionally implemented, low-latency, jitter-free and real time application. (note: to my knowledge, sched_fifo functionality has not been implemented with either library and is next on the priority list to implement in the application). The two candidates are portmidi (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~music/portmusic/) and RtMidi (http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/) RtMidi is part of the Synthesis Toolkit (STK) but can be obtained stand-alone. For comparison, I have chosen the following criteria: * Availability * Learning curve * Stability * Features * Real-Time performance First thing I did was download PortMidi, mainly because I didn't know what static linking was at the time and RtMidi (I had found both easily through Google) I decided I would go for the library with the smaller size. (As I later discovered RtMidi is available as a seperate library, but was not packaged for my OS, Debian Etch) Even while on the site I got a bit suspicious about PortMidi, as there were quite many 'projects that use portmidi' listed on their site, and a lot of titles and fancy names, but very little actual software. I've got a little bit of entrepreneurial experience under my belt, just enough to tell it is a bad idea to proudly display 'Future Projects' as references. Nonetheless, I decided to give portmidi a chance, in the hope things would get better. They didn't. The 'Documentation' was sparse, cryptically written, and still in the header file (IE no HTML had been generated). I found this to be quite a careless attitude but I had decided to try it out and I did. The API isn't much better. To open an interface, a six parameter function was necessary, of which two were actually relevant (device ID and stream pointer). In order to send a message it was necessary to create a 'buffer' object, write timestamp and message data to it, and pass it on to a 'write' function. Also, it was riddled with pointers-to-pointers and various combinations of references and de-references and I had to revert to plain trial and error to get it to work. It finally did, though. After a similar odyssee with the input library, which, unlike my experience with portmidi I attribute to the fact I had never programmed C++ before, the application finally stood. Pressing buttons on the keyboard generated MIDI events. How grand! However, there was a downside; somehow, pressing and holding keys generated randomly-spaced additional sounds. "How funny," I thought, "my physical keyboard must be not appropriate for such fine use." After battling with C++ polymorphism for DAYS ON END to get the plugin architecture to work I decided it was time to implement threading. Looking for a good thread class I realized that is not such a trivial thing currently. Realizing that RtMidi already had one, and that it was implemented in an audio environment, I decided to switch MIDI libraries too as the Thread class was probably optimized for RtMidi. What a world of difference! I was greeted with a very friendly page titled 'RtMidi', the author had a picture of himself on the page (it's VERY reassuring to know he is not hiding from the police) and looked like he's been meditating a lot, and had it not been for the advanced C++ functionality used in the class that I hadn't learned yet ('advanced' is relative, I mean the vector class and the concept of 'templates') I would have been done implementing in an hour or two. Seriously, RtMidi is one of the most beautifully crafted interfaces I have seen to date, with examples in the beautifully done tutorial. Unlike portmidi it was possible to create ALSA MIDI virtual devices, and the code for sending MIDI events was ONE LINE. Using references it was possible to write a callback function for application plugins that DIRECTLY affect the raw data sent. Clearly, I had a winner. When I tested it I realized what had seemed like a broken keyboard was simply how portmidi responded to repeated, fast events; I had not turned off KeyRepeat events in the event handler, and what was left of them with PortMidi were randomly spaced events between 200 and 500ms apart, somehow mangled in the obscurity of the code I can only presume. With RtMidi it was possible to recognize the events for what they were, crystal clear, fast and evenly spaced KeyRepeats clogging my synthesizer with utmost precision. I have yet to fix the KeyRepeat problem, but it tought me a lot about performance. Perhaps the 'KeyRepeat' test could evolve to a rather good rule-of-thumb benchmark for MIDI performance. And I haven't even implemented SCHED_FIFO yet. As a conclusion, I can draw the following ratings matrix for the two, I can assume the care with which documentation is crafted is a good indicator for code quality, and I can only recommend: Keep your hands of portmidi. Write a wrapper if you need to use C, but for heaven's sake if you don't want all your musical timing ruined, just don't use portmidi, period. MATRIX 1: Useless 5: Excellent portmidi RtMidi Availability 4 4 Learning curve 1 4 Stability 3 4 Features 3 4 Real-Time performance 1 5 Carlo -X-X-X- Did you think this review was helpful for you? Please give a simple 1 to 5 rating, or a quick comment. Thank you. From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 06:39:35 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 06:39:58 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: Personally, I'd love to see more GTK2 apps around. I think it's the oldest *full featured* toolkit around and I think even the bloat is bearable (just keep your hands off anything that says 'Gnome') Carlo From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 06:46:33 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 06:47:01 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.3 Message-ID: Announcing Shelljam 0.0.3. Almost everything is broken in this release. I am providing it to demonstrate how absolutely, admirably, extensively, beautifully and fantastically plain wonderful the new MIDI interface, RtMidi is. It is so fast you won't believe it. And it does NOT even use low latency scheduling yet. Also, as a sneak peak, the rudiments of a plugin architecture are present. Instruments may be created deriving off a base class that has a virtual callback function (see shelljaminstrument.h in the source for API... it is NOT frozen) There are also two cutish pictures of myself on the web site now. Thanks for your interest. Carlo From v2 at iki.fi Sat Feb 25 07:00:19 2006 From: v2 at iki.fi (Sampo Savolainen) Date: Sat Feb 25 07:00:31 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 12:39 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > Personally, I'd love to see more GTK2 apps around. > > I think it's the oldest *full featured* toolkit around and I think even > the bloat is bearable (just keep your hands off anything that says 'Gnome') /me starts a flamewar Even the packages which say gnome-vfs? So you _want_ the applications to be incapable of loading & saving files over smb shares, ftp shares, webdav or ssh shares? How about future proof sharing models? VFS handles that too. Oh, and how about printing? Like it's been said before. Installing kde or gnome libraries, doesn't force you to use either desktop environment. The libraries do take some disk space, but I personally think the benefits derived from using the libraries outweigh the disk space taken. I'm a programmer = I'm lazy = I don't want to write printing dialogs, or VFS support, especially since it's already provided by gnome. Bottom line, as I see it is: look at what features gnome / kde offers you. If they offer something you need (like VFS or printing) you SHOULD use them. Your own printing dialogs or VFS support will be inferior to what the gnome / kde teams come up with. Why? It's their job. An audio software programmer's job is to make the AUDIO part work really well, not use their time reimplementing the wheel. (Having said this, Ardour will probably never have gnome dependencies because afaik at the moment gnome doesn't offer us anything we need). -- Sampo Savolainen From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 07:15:08 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 07:15:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: > I'm a programmer = I'm lazy = I don't want to write printing dialogs, or > VFS support, especially since it's already provided by gnome. Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) I think widgets are a GOOD thing. I also think modularity is a good thing. KDE and Gnome both appear greedy to me. They both want me to use their system and hence, tell me how to use my computer. Very little care is taken to make sure individual parts can be used without installing the whole whack. It's like I want to marry the girl I love but I can't without also marrying her cousin, her sister and her aunt. This is the Win/Mac philosophy, not the UNIX philosophy, and especially not the free software philosophy. That is why I recommend XFCE which does exactly that. Carlo From ce at christeck.de Sat Feb 25 07:31:26 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Sat Feb 25 07:28:48 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200602251331.26760.ce@christeck.de> Hi, > There are also two cutish pictures of myself on the web site now. is there an URL :) ? Best regards ce From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 07:47:59 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 07:48:17 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: [Ann] Shelljam 0.0.3 In-Reply-To: <200602251331.26760.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602251331.26760.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: > is there an URL :) ? Yeah, that's Carlo Capocasa, 28 Dry Acre Road, 0909... no wait. That's http://shelljam.sourceforge.net Carlo From dlphillips at woh.rr.com Sat Feb 25 09:27:08 2006 From: dlphillips at woh.rr.com (Dave Phillips) Date: Sat Feb 25 08:59:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Linux soundapps pages updated Message-ID: <4400693C.1060902@woh.rr.com> Greetings: And another one hits the information goatpath : http://linuxsound.atnet.at (Europe) http://linuxsound.jp (Japan) http://linux-sound.org (USA) Best, dp From jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi Sat Feb 25 09:56:09 2006 From: jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi (Jussi Laako) Date: Sat Feb 25 09:56:33 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <1140879369.15278.1.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 12:39 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > Personally, I'd love to see more GTK2 apps around. > > I think it's the oldest *full featured* toolkit around and I think even > the bloat is bearable (just keep your hands off anything that says 'Gnome') Motif is pretty old and full featured, but it's PITA to use, IMO... - Jussi From v2 at iki.fi Sat Feb 25 09:56:18 2006 From: v2 at iki.fi (Sampo Savolainen) Date: Sat Feb 25 09:56:39 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 13:15 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) Ah, the sign of a good programmer. :) > KDE and Gnome both appear greedy to me. They both want me to use their > system and hence, tell me how to use my computer. Very little care is > taken to make sure individual parts can be used without installing the > whole whack. It's like I want to marry the girl I love but I can't > without also marrying her cousin, her sister and her aunt. This is the > Win/Mac philosophy, not the UNIX philosophy, and especially not the free > software philosophy. It's true that with KDE you are marrying into KDE's family with bastard cousins like ksycoca, kdeinit, klauncher etc. But this isn't true with gnome. > That is why I recommend XFCE which does exactly that. Does xfce provide nice printing tools? How about VFS? These two are the things I would _never_ want to implement: Extending a file selector to provide support for remote protocols and filling landfills/recycling plants with print dialog tests. argh. Of course, it's a matter of whether you really need the sorts of widgets etc. that these packages provide. I'd rather give the users tried, tested & proved concepts which are well supported and developed onwards by people who really want to develop the sort of software it is. This would leave me to concentrate my efforts on what the application is really supposed to do. Of course, we are free to do whatever we want. I just don't see real downsides to gnome integration. I love the UNIX philosophy, but it doesn't mean zero integration. Free software philosophy doesn't have anything against integration either; How would it be "free" if you couldn't use the (free) libraries you want? ;) -- Sampo Savolainen From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 11:42:09 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 11:42:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140879369.15278.1.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140879369.15278.1.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> Message-ID: > Motif is pretty old and full featured, but it's PITA to use, IMO... Okay, correction. GTK is the oldest full featured toolkit around you can use without gradually going blind. From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 11:54:56 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 11:55:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: > Ah, the sign of a good programmer. :) There are actually people who still count, when for (int i=0;i It's true that with KDE you are marrying into KDE's family with bastard > cousins like ksycoca, kdeinit, klauncher etc. But this isn't true with > gnome. Well I'm not kissing gnomecanvas. >>That is why I recommend XFCE which does exactly that. > Does xfce provide nice printing tools? How about VFS? Printing? No idea. Haven't used any paper for ages. As for VFS IMHO that's not the job of a desktop environment but of something mountable, which can be accessed by XFFM, Nautilus, Konqueror and the Midnight Commander alike. Where are the text-based frontends for KDE print dialogs? We've got to have a little more flexibility and client server, we're Unix! > These two are the things I would _never_ want to implement: Extending a > file selector to provide support for remote protocols and filling > landfills/recycling plants with print dialog tests. argh. Of course, > it's a matter of whether you really need the sorts of widgets etc. that > these packages provide. I agree that it is nice to have lot's of specialized APIs around. I also believe they should be cult-free. Branding has done enough harm in the commercial world. > I'd rather give the users tried, tested & proved concepts which are well > supported and developed onwards by people who really want to develop the > sort of software it is. This would leave me to concentrate my efforts on > what the application is really supposed to do. I absolutely, whole-heartedly agree. I simply believe all those things should be implemented in a cross-desktop manner so whoever feels like it can run a frontend. If the same were true for file compression we'd have seperate implementations of gzip for KDE, Gnome and Fluxbox, all of which would be buggy and partly incompatible. That's obviously silly. We need dedicated people to implement things ONCE and then have a bunch of artists who can make consistent front-ends if they feel like it. Back-end must be untied. > Of course, we are free to do whatever we want. I just don't see real > downsides to gnome integration. As for frontends, sure! Backends must be desktop-independant or we have Windowsware. By the way, I'm really enjoying talking to intelligent people about interesting subjects. I've been making some efforts to dumb myself down a little recently in order to get a glimpse of the Sitcom-Loving world but it's been like walking around with a chain ball on my anchle. This is very refreshing. Carlo From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Sat Feb 25 15:49:55 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Sat Feb 25 15:52:38 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <1140900595.5806.12.camel@eviltwin> James, I normally prefer Qt but when I started working with JAMin Steve got me started using GTK (no one wanted to switch to C++ from C). We used Glade to build the graphics structure and it is really simple and easy to use. If you want to stay in C I would suggest trying that. On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 01:14 +0000, james@dis-dot-dat.net wrote: > Hello all. > > I've always steered clear of writing GUIs, so my experience is pretty > limited. But now I find myself needing a toolkit/widget set. > > What's recommended? I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to > C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the > window. > > I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a > button, either. > > And something that's installed as default in most distros would be > good, too. > > So, what I want is everything. And it should be simple, too. > > Any suggestions? > > James > -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From ix at replic.net Sat Feb 25 17:33:30 2006 From: ix at replic.net (cdr) Date: Sat Feb 25 17:33:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> > > Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) since this thread is so GTK+-centric i'll chime in and say ive found nothing i like for easily creating customized/flexible GUIs more than Tcl/Tk and Ruby-on-Rails. both tools allow me to do exactly what i want with minimal fuss - i still dont know anything about C++ memory management and am grateful for ways to easily bring my ideas to life without an advanced CS degree. once going beyond sortable lists and selectorboxes, youre going to end up with some kind of canvas, at which point TCL is very mature, and Gecko/XulRunner with its new object is turning into nice option. or even python/ruby bindings to Cairo... > cousins like ksycoca, kdeinit, klauncher etc. But this isn't true with > gnome. this is unfortunately true. if you are running openbox, or evilWM or what not, you might as well be running KDE if you are ever going to us a KDE app. for example amarok will take 15 seconds to startup on the latest machine as all sorts of crap daemons loaded: root 14912 0.0 0.5 71936 11292 ? Ss 09:40 0:00 kdeinit Running... root 14915 0.0 0.1 69684 3156 ? S 09:40 0:00 dcopserver [kdeinit] --nosid root 14917 0.0 0.4 72404 8956 ? S 09:40 0:00 klauncher [kdeinit] root 14919 0.1 1.0 97624 21360 ? S 09:40 0:59 kded [kdeinit] root 14935 0.0 0.6 75868 12708 ? S 09:41 0:00 kaccess [kdeinit] root 14938 0.0 0.6 74832 13016 ? S 09:41 0:00 ksmserver [kdeinit] gnome apps do nothing of the sort From mle+la at mega-nerd.com Sat Feb 25 17:54:39 2006 From: mle+la at mega-nerd.com (Erik de Castro Lopo) Date: Sat Feb 25 17:54:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> Carlo Capocasa wrote: > > > Ah, the sign of a good programmer. :) > > There are actually people who still count, when > > for (int i=0;i cout << i << endl; Shouldn't you put parentheses around on or the other of those left shift operators? :-) > is in itself a work of pristine beauty, immense practicality, and you > can spend a lot of time lying around while the machine approaches n. If you want pristine beauty, you should have a look the function to find the intersection of two lists in Ocaml: let rec intersect lst = function [] -> [] | head :: tail -> if List.mem head lst then head :: intersect lst tail else intersect lst tail Erik -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ Erik de Castro Lopo +-----------------------------------------------------------+ "They should make peace with those who make peace, and wage war against those who wage war, and wage jihad against those who stand in the way of spreading the message of Islam and causing it to prevail of earth." http://islamqa.com/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=26721&dgn=4 From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Sat Feb 25 18:16:26 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Sat Feb 25 18:15:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> Message-ID: <4400E54A.4040808@t-online.de> Erik de Castro Lopo wrote: >>for (int i=0;i> cout << i << endl; > > Shouldn't you put parentheses around on or the other of those > left shift operators? :-) Now, << was left-associative, wasn't it? Or was it? ;-) > If you want pristine beauty, you should have a look the function > to find the intersection of two lists in Ocaml: > > let rec intersect lst = > [...] To make this thread go totally off-topic, here's the same in Q: intersect Xs [Y|Ys] = [Y|intersect Xs Ys] if any (=Y) Xs; = intersect Xs Ys otherwise; Now which one looks prettier? Sorry, couldn't resist. ;-) Albert -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Sat Feb 25 19:17:45 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Sat Feb 25 19:16:40 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> Message-ID: <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> cdr wrote: > since this thread is so GTK+-centric i'll chime in and say ive found nothing i like for easily creating customized/flexible GUIs more than Tcl/Tk [...] Not to forget there's also Gnocl which lets you program Gnome and GTK+ applications in Tcl: http://www.dr-baum.net/gnocl/ I've actually written a GUI builder for that which makes it possible to click together simple Gnocl GUIs in a matter of minutes. (Currently the builder only generates Q code, see below, but tacking on a Tcl backend to it shouldn't be a big deal.) I'm not sure how well Tcl integrates with MIDI, OSC and digital audio, though. So, if you want/need to write the rest of the program in C then Tcl might not be that helpful, unless you're willing to fiddle around with SWIG (http://www.swig.org) or Tcl's C interface. Shameless plug: Those interested in scripting languages might also consider Q (http://q-lang.sf.net) which already has interfaces to PortAudio, libsndfile, libsamplerate, Faust, MidiShare, SuperCollider, OpenGL/OpenAL, Tcl/Tk/Gnocl and whatnot. This has the added benefit that it's a functional language which makes it easy to deal with complex data structures and symbolic processing. I'm currently doing the final touches for the Q 7.0 release which also has full unicode support and comes with the GUI builder I mentioned above. Scheduled to be released Real Soon Now -- surely in time for LAC06. ;-) > once going beyond sortable lists and selectorboxes, youre going to end up with some kind of canvas Yes, having a good canvas widget certainly helps, and Tk has a nice one. The one in Gnocl provides a similar interface while it is based on GNOME Canvas. (Looks like GNOME Canvas isn't liked very much by some, but I found it to be quite usable, at least in its Gnocl incarnation.) Albert -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From rlrevell at joe-job.com Sat Feb 25 19:19:29 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Sat Feb 25 19:19:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140665146.25407.38.camel@eviltwin> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> <1140665146.25407.38.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <1140913169.24141.21.camel@mindpipe> On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 21:25 -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 01:23 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > > > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > > > > > > This is a false dichotomy. > > > > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. > > > > I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. > > > > Damn, Lee, we're agreeing on everything except real-time. This is > not normal for us ;-) > I should have said, I think onerous DRM will fail in the marketplace. I see no reason why reasonable DRM like Apple's system that lets you CHOOSE whether to buy songs from Itunes or fill it with illegal MP3s should fail. Lee From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Sat Feb 25 19:21:27 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Sat Feb 25 19:20:31 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <4400E54A.4040808@t-online.de> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> <4400E54A.4040808@t-online.de> Message-ID: <4400F487.9080105@t-online.de> /me wrote: > To make this thread go totally off-topic, here's the same in Q: Sorry, I forgot one equation: intersect Xs [] = []; intersect Xs [Y|Ys] = [Y|intersect Xs Ys] if any (=Y) Xs; = intersect Xs Ys otherwise; -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Sat Feb 25 19:42:18 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Sat Feb 25 19:42:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: <20060225120036.7DAF07C469F@music.columbia.edu> References: <20060225120036.7DAF07C469F@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: >Hi, > >I've had the pleasure and misfortune to test both of the widely known >portable MIDI libraries, and now believe I have found one that works to >my satisfaction. > >This is not a quantifiable review with benchmarking but the subjective >experience of someone who has implemented a very simple yet nonetheless >professionally implemented, low-latency, jitter-free and real time >application. > >The two candidates are > >portmidi (http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~music/portmusic/) > >and > >RtMidi (http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~gary/rtmidi/) Well, I guess the midishare guys should promote more... http://midishare.sourceforge.net/ From mle+la at mega-nerd.com Sat Feb 25 20:41:11 2006 From: mle+la at mega-nerd.com (Erik de Castro Lopo) Date: Sat Feb 25 20:41:49 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <4400F487.9080105@t-online.de> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> <4400E54A.4040808@t-online.de> <4400F487.9080105@t-online.de> Message-ID: <20060226124111.7ea67cf6.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> Albert Graef wrote: > /me wrote: > > To make this thread go totally off-topic, here's the same in Q: > > Sorry, I forgot one equation: > > intersect Xs [] = []; > intersect Xs [Y|Ys] = [Y|intersect Xs Ys] if any (=Y) Xs; > = intersect Xs Ys otherwise; Ah yeah, like Haskell and Erlang would do it. I do prefer the Ocaml way :-) Erik -- +-----------------------------------------------------------+ Erik de Castro Lopo +-----------------------------------------------------------+ "Perl as a language has less a design than a thousand special features flying in close formation." -- From the c2 wiki From capocasa at gmx.net Sat Feb 25 20:51:04 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sat Feb 25 20:52:01 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060226095439.634812c5.mle+la@mega-nerd.com> Message-ID: >>for (int i=0;i> cout << i << endl; > > > Shouldn't you put parentheses around on or the other of those > left shift operators? :-) What atrociously obscure communication method have you loaded into your mind? This is C++! > let rec intersect lst = > function > [] -> [] > | head :: tail -> > if List.mem head lst then > head :: intersect lst tail > else > intersect lst tail > Oooooh. I like the curves on that one. Carlo From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Sat Feb 25 22:25:10 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Sat Feb 25 22:25:19 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: <1140924310.6687.13.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-25-02 at 01:14 +0000, james@dis-dot-dat.net wrote: > Hello all. > > I've always steered clear of writing GUIs, so my experience is pretty > limited. But now I find myself needing a toolkit/widget set. > > What's recommended? I'd prefer not to have to move my app from C to > C++ just to implement the interface, so that's quite a few out of the > window. > > I don't really want huge dependencies for a knob, text box and a > button, either. > > And something that's installed as default in most distros would be > good, too. GTK -DR- From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Sat Feb 25 22:29:53 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Sat Feb 25 22:29:59 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: <1140924593.6687.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2006-25-02 at 13:15 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > > I'm a programmer = I'm lazy = I don't want to write printing dialogs, or > > VFS support, especially since it's already provided by gnome. > > Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) > > I think widgets are a GOOD thing. I also think modularity is a good thing. > > KDE and Gnome both appear greedy to me. They both want me to use their > system and hence, tell me how to use my computer. Very little care is > taken to make sure individual parts can be used without installing the > whole whack. It's like I want to marry the girl I love but I can't > without also marrying her cousin, her sister and her aunt. This is the > Win/Mac philosophy, not the UNIX philosophy, and especially not the free > software philosophy. This is much less true of GNOME than KDE, FWIW. -DR- From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Sat Feb 25 22:35:35 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Sat Feb 25 22:35:40 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> Message-ID: <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-26-02 at 01:17 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: > Yes, having a good canvas widget certainly helps, and Tk has a nice one. > The one in Gnocl provides a similar interface while it is based on GNOME > Canvas. (Looks like GNOME Canvas isn't liked very much by some, but I > found it to be quite usable, at least in its Gnocl incarnation.) Interesting fact: there is nothing good about GnomeCanvas. Nothing. :) -DR- From rlrevell at joe-job.com Sat Feb 25 22:40:47 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Sat Feb 25 22:40:53 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140924593.6687.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140924593.6687.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140925247.24141.101.camel@mindpipe> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 22:29 -0500, Dave Robillard wrote: > This is much less true of GNOME than KDE, FWIW. > Also before you spout off make sure you've tried a recent version, both desktops have been de-bloated a lot lately. Lee From park at tulane.edu Sun Feb 26 03:02:30 2006 From: park at tulane.edu (park) Date: Sun Feb 26 01:02:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ICMC 2006: Extended Deadlines Message-ID: <44016096.7030707@tulane.edu> Please pardon cross postings and feel free to distribute this announcement. ICMC 2006: Extended Deadlines Y'all are invited to submit your best, finest, or even craziest works to the 2006 ICMC conference to be held in New Orleans, Louisiana, USA from November 6 - 11, 2006. To facilitate the submission of your works we have extended the deadlines: Music/Video/Installations: March 18 (Sat), 2006 Papers: March 11 (Sat), 2006 This conference is not only a historic collaboration between ICMA and SEAMUS (Society of Electro Acoustic Music in the US) but is also a conference that will help with the recovery of a city, its people, and its culture. We have also further updated performance resources which includes the Ensemble Surplus from Germany, NextEns from Cincinnati, Cat 5 from Mississipi, the infamous Convolution Brothers, dancers from the Tulane Theater and Dance Department, our own Tulane Music Department Musicians, Korean traditional instrumentalists from Seoul, and much more. During the conference we'll be giving away gifts and prizes (as well as lots of beads!) made possible by generous donations by our corporate sponsors such as Bias(numerous copies of Peak Pro XT), Parallax (10 BS2 boards with on board bread-boards), Mixmeister (more than $1000 worth of products), Maxim-IC (no not the magazine!), Electrotrap ($800 worth of sensors for your HCI needs), empreintes DIGITALes (special "ICMC" CD for all registered participants), Soundhack (5 copies of spectral shapers), fxpansion (one of each software type) and many more goodies. Please visit www.icmc2006.org regarding updates and details. Laissez les bon temps roulez! Sincerely, Tae Hong Park, ICMC 2006 Conference Chair From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Sun Feb 26 02:11:23 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Sun Feb 26 02:14:06 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> Message-ID: <1140937883.10161.4.camel@eviltwin> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 16:56 +0200, Sampo Savolainen wrote: > On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 13:15 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > > Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) > > Ah, the sign of a good programmer. :) > > > KDE and Gnome both appear greedy to me. They both want me to use their > > system and hence, tell me how to use my computer. Very little care is > > taken to make sure individual parts can be used without installing the > > whole whack. It's like I want to marry the girl I love but I can't > > without also marrying her cousin, her sister and her aunt. This is the > > Win/Mac philosophy, not the UNIX philosophy, and especially not the free > > software philosophy. > > It's true that with KDE you are marrying into KDE's family with bastard > cousins like ksycoca, kdeinit, klauncher etc. But this isn't true with > gnome. > I just want to point out, for those who do not already know, KDE is not the same as Qt. KDE is built using Qt. I write most everything at work using C++/Qt. I do not use any KDE libraries. I still get the lovely printing, ftp, socket, mysql, etc widgets without having to run any of the KDE stuff. -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From eviltwin69 at cableone.net Sun Feb 26 02:19:56 2006 From: eviltwin69 at cableone.net (Jan Depner) Date: Sun Feb 26 02:22:39 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140913169.24141.21.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> <1140665146.25407.38.camel@eviltwin> <1140913169.24141.21.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140938396.10161.6.camel@eviltwin> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 19:19 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 21:25 -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 01:23 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > > > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > > > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > > > > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > > > > > > > > > This is a false dichotomy. > > > > > > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. > > > > > > I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. > > > > > > > Damn, Lee, we're agreeing on everything except real-time. This is > > not normal for us ;-) > > > > I should have said, I think onerous DRM will fail in the marketplace. I > see no reason why reasonable DRM like Apple's system that lets you > CHOOSE whether to buy songs from Itunes or fill it with illegal MP3s > should fail. > See. There I go, agreeing with you again ;-) -- Jan 'Evil Twin' Depner The Fuzzy Dice http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/fuzzy.html "As we enjoy great advantages from the invention of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously." Benjamin Franklin, on declining patents offered by the governor of Pennsylvania for his "Pennsylvania Fireplace", c. 1744 From capocasa at gmx.net Sun Feb 26 04:34:07 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sun Feb 26 04:34:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Mitch The Midget (was: Re: Which widgets?) In-Reply-To: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: Everyone say this one real fast: Which widget's Mitch the midget's, Mitch the midget's widget's which? From capocasa at gmx.net Sun Feb 26 04:40:18 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sun Feb 26 04:40:34 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > portmidi RtMidi > > Availability 4 4 > Learning curve 1 4 > Stability 3 4 > Features 3 4 > Real-Time performance 1 5 > > Correction: The story about the key repeats turning into random notes for PortMidi is not correct. The notes really were glitches in my keyboard hardware, so this means that PortMidi's jitter is not as bad as I thought. I am still happier with RtMidi's crisp programming interface though. Carlo From capocasa at gmx.net Sun Feb 26 04:42:32 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Sun Feb 26 04:50:15 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: References: <20060225120036.7DAF07C469F@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: > > http://midishare.sourceforge.net/ > :) I only wrote the article because I wanted to write an article and had implemented both... I switched to RtMidi mainly because it has a Thread class that's likely to be tuned at audio apps. Oh so MidiShare is NOT an entire operating system geared at shoving around MIDI notes? I kind of thought that was awfully specialized. Carlo From rj at spamatica.se Sun Feb 26 04:58:54 2006 From: rj at spamatica.se (Robert Jonsson) Date: Sun Feb 26 04:59:01 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140937883.10161.4.camel@eviltwin> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <1140937883.10161.4.camel@eviltwin> Message-ID: <200602261058.54962.rj@spamatica.se> On Sunday 26 February 2006 08.11, Jan Depner wrote: > On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 16:56 +0200, Sampo Savolainen wrote: > > On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 13:15 +0100, Carlo Capocasa wrote: > > > Heh, I'm only a novice programmer, and I'm already lazy :) > > > > Ah, the sign of a good programmer. :) > > > > > KDE and Gnome both appear greedy to me. They both want me to use their > > > system and hence, tell me how to use my computer. Very little care is > > > taken to make sure individual parts can be used without installing the > > > whole whack. It's like I want to marry the girl I love but I can't > > > without also marrying her cousin, her sister and her aunt. This is the > > > Win/Mac philosophy, not the UNIX philosophy, and especially not the > > > free software philosophy. > > > > It's true that with KDE you are marrying into KDE's family with bastard > > cousins like ksycoca, kdeinit, klauncher etc. But this isn't true with > > gnome. > > I just want to point out, for those who do not already know, KDE is > not the same as Qt. KDE is built using Qt. I write most everything at > work using C++/Qt. I do not use any KDE libraries. I still get the > lovely printing, ftp, socket, mysql, etc widgets without having to run > any of the KDE stuff. Just wanted to chime in with a, I concur. If you want to build on a gui toolkit and get the least dependencies I think neither Gnome nor KDE are the right choices. The real choices here are QT or GTK. The choice is simple for me, QT, but that's just me... As for other toolkits, there are soon as many as there are stars in the sky, though most of them don't get installed on a standard system. I wonder how widespread fltk is? I checked it out a very long time ago there was a lot of things to like about it, small, gui-builder etc... /Robert -- http://spamatica.se/musicsite/ From x at branwelt.de Sun Feb 26 06:07:59 2006 From: x at branwelt.de (Emanuel Rumpf) Date: Sun Feb 26 06:06:52 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets In-Reply-To: <200602261058.54962.rj@spamatica.se> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <1140937883.10161.4.camel@eviltwin> <200602261058.54962.rj@spamatica.se> Message-ID: <44018C0F.40609@branwelt.de> Robert Jonsson wrote: >neither Gnome nor KDE are the right choices. The real choices here are QT or >GTK. The choice is simple for me, QT, but that's just me... > > There's also wxWidgets http://www.wxwidgets.org/whychoos.htm Emanuel From richard.spindler at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 06:30:38 2006 From: richard.spindler at gmail.com (Richard Spindler) Date: Sun Feb 26 06:30:42 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <200602261058.54962.rj@spamatica.se> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <1140937883.10161.4.camel@eviltwin> <200602261058.54962.rj@spamatica.se> Message-ID: <4af8d6ff0602260330i498ccdd3v@mail.gmail.com> 2006/2/26, Robert Jonsson : > As for other toolkits, there are soon as many as there are stars in the sky, > though most of them don't get installed on a standard system. I wonder how > widespread fltk is? I checked it out a very long time ago there was a lot of > things to like about it, small, gui-builder etc... I'm using fltk, and I quite like it, it's small and fast, and most distris have it in their repositories, It compilies quickly, so it's not a big issue if it's missing on the users system. There are also quite a few nice fltk-based apps, so I guess most audio users might have it on their boxes as well. I switched from wxWidgets to fltk, and I do net regret it because it offers almost the same cross-platform capablities (X11, OSX, win32), while it's headers are much smaller, which results in faster compile times, and this is convinient during development. There are some things that I'm missing, that wx has, but I've always found ways to work around these shortcomings. -Richard From krampenschiesser at freenet.de Sun Feb 26 07:47:39 2006 From: krampenschiesser at freenet.de (krampenschiesser@freenet.de) Date: Sun Feb 26 07:47:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20060226134739.3bad46e9.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> thx for this report. I think I'll have a further look at rtmidi. Christian -- A triangle which has an angle of 135 degrees is called an obscene triangle. From james at dis-dot-dat.net Sun Feb 26 08:53:33 2006 From: james at dis-dot-dat.net (james@dis-dot-dat.net) Date: Sun Feb 26 08:42:13 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] arcangel (and result of widget discussion) Message-ID: <20060226135333.GB8325@phlunky.Belkin> Howdy peeps, arcangel is a very simple distortion jack-enabled effect. It sounds warm and crunches nicely when you turn it up. If there was a competition for the simplest non-demo jack app, this would probably win. http://www.dis-dot-dat.net/index.cgi?item=/code/arcangel/ There's a demo mp3, too. If someone feels like playing a guitar through it for a new demo, let me know. My playing isn't up to scratch. And I'd love to hear a bass guitar through it... Thanks to all the people on the LAD list that made suggestions on widget sets. It was much appreciated. In the end, I went with xforms because it was so simple and small, although I might play with GTK at some point. James -- "I'd crawl over an acre of 'Visual This++' and 'Integrated Development That' to get to gcc, Emacs, and gdb. Thank you." (By Vance Petree, Virginia Power) From jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi Sun Feb 26 11:45:33 2006 From: jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi (Jussi Laako) Date: Sun Feb 26 11:45:39 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 22:35 -0500, Dave Robillard wrote: > Interesting fact: there is nothing good about GnomeCanvas. > Nothing. For any free form rendering I use Cairo or OpenGL nowadays. Better performance and you get antialiased lines etc practically for free. And what's most important, you don't have to care about pixel coordinates or resolutions anymore (esp. in OpenGL). - Jussi From zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk Sun Feb 26 12:10:22 2006 From: zenadsl6252 at zen.co.uk (peter) Date: Sun Feb 26 12:10:28 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: No Subject In-Reply-To: <1140913169.24141.21.camel@mindpipe> References: <20060221234548.2A4FD736C4E@music.columbia.edu> <1140570108.2742.103.camel@mindpipe> <1140573782.14415.61.camel@eviltwin> <1140588861.5599.135.camel@moon> <1140589399.2742.216.camel@mindpipe> <1140665146.25407.38.camel@eviltwin> <1140913169.24141.21.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1140973822.6986.69.camel@dsl-62-3-104-34.zen.co.uk> On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 19:19 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 21:25 -0600, Jan Depner wrote: > > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 01:23 -0500, Lee Revell wrote: > > > On Wed, 2006-02-22 at 06:14 +0000, peter wrote: > > > > i have a question for you though, would you take widespread copyright > > > > infringement over pervasive DRM (and it's associated outcomes)? > > > > > > > > > > This is a false dichotomy. > > > > > > > it's a moot question, we're gonna get DRM. > > > > > > I'm not worried - I think DRM will fail in the marketplace. > > > > > > > Damn, Lee, we're agreeing on everything except real-time. This is > > not normal for us ;-) > > > > I should have said, I think onerous DRM will fail in the marketplace. I > see no reason why reasonable DRM like Apple's system that lets you > CHOOSE whether to buy songs from Itunes or fill it with illegal MP3s > should fail. so in other words, we now agree on the outcome, just not the justification. pete. From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Sun Feb 26 14:38:04 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Sun Feb 26 14:37:16 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> Message-ID: <4402039C.3080409@t-online.de> Jussi Laako wrote: > For any free form rendering I use Cairo or OpenGL nowadays. Better > performance and you get antialiased lines etc practically for free. And > what's most important, you don't have to care about pixel coordinates or > resolutions anymore (esp. in OpenGL). Canvases give you much more than just rendering. They also manage the graphical objects that you created and, if anything changes, rerendering the changed parts happens automatically. Moreover, they let you inspect the object model of the rendered graphic. Does Cairo do that for you? OpenGL can do something like this with its display lists, but that's a very low-level abstraction compared to what canvas widgets offer. -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Sun Feb 26 14:50:32 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Sun Feb 26 14:49:30 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: References: <20060225120036.7DAF07C469F@music.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <44020688.5040605@t-online.de> Carlo Capocasa wrote: > Oh so MidiShare is NOT an entire operating system geared at shoving > around MIDI notes? I kind of thought that was awfully specialized. No, it's a library for processing MIDI which offers some very nice and unique features, such as a kind of (cross-application) virtual loopbacks built into the design of the library. It is true that it is not as straightforward to build and install (at least on Linux) since its internals are implemented as a kernel module. But it has very accurate timing and provides a well thought-out abstraction layer. It's been ported to a lot of platforms. It's also very mature and well-documented. It's definitely worth taking a look at. -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi Sun Feb 26 18:16:17 2006 From: jussi.laako at pp.inet.fi (Jussi Laako) Date: Sun Feb 26 18:16:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <4402039C.3080409@t-online.de> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> <4402039C.3080409@t-online.de> Message-ID: <1140995777.11258.13.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 20:38 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: > Canvases give you much more than just rendering. They also manage the > graphical objects that you created and, if anything changes, rerendering > the changed parts happens automatically. That's usually bad and undesirable for any real time graphics rendering, like audio UIs often are. For example with proper interfaces I can now get full screen scrolling spectrogram at 50-100 fps without huge CPU load. > Moreover, they let you inspect > the object model of the rendered graphic. Does Cairo do that for you? Well, Gtk+ uses Cairo nowadays anyway... Coordinate transformations, etc. make it reasonable to also get proper printer output. > OpenGL can do something like this with its display lists, but that's a > very low-level abstraction compared to what canvas widgets offer. Probably you could create proper canvas implementation on top of Cairo/OpenGL, but most of the current implementations I've seen are dead slow. I'm not sure if GnomeCanvas or some other implementation has been converted to Cairo yet... - Jussi From fons.adriaensen at skynet.be Sun Feb 26 19:17:34 2006 From: fons.adriaensen at skynet.be (fons adriaensen) Date: Sun Feb 26 19:10:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140995777.11258.13.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> References: <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> <4402039C.3080409@t-online.de> <1140995777.11258.13.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> Message-ID: <20060227001734.GF4775@linux-1> On Mon, Feb 27, 2006 at 01:16:17AM +0200, Jussi Laako wrote: > On Sun, 2006-02-26 at 20:38 +0100, Albert Graef wrote: > > Canvases give you much more than just rendering. They also manage the > > graphical objects that you created and, if anything changes, rerendering > > the changed parts happens automatically. > > That's usually bad and undesirable for any real time graphics rendering, > like audio UIs often are. For example with proper interfaces I can now > get full screen scrolling spectrogram at 50-100 fps without huge CPU > load. Correct. Having done a lot of this stuff in earlier lifes, my conclusion is that the right way to organise redrawing, scrolling, zooming etc. depends a lot on the sort of data you want to display and how it is modified either 'from within' or as a result of user interaction. I just can't imagine there could exist a single model that would handle even a small selection of the situations I've encountered efficiently. Every abstraction is based on some assumptions and I've seen them break down time and time again. When using X, you have a fundamental choice between drawing directly to a window or to a pixmap. In the first case you must be prepared to refresh anything at any time, and be organised to do this effeciently. In the second case X will take care of refreshing newly exposed parts, but you are using a limited resource (if the pixmap has to remain in graphics memory for speed). I guess most canvases take the lazy (2nd) route. -- FA From drobilla at connect.carleton.ca Sun Feb 26 20:30:15 2006 From: drobilla at connect.carleton.ca (Dave Robillard) Date: Sun Feb 26 20:30:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> Message-ID: <1141003815.26562.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, 2006-26-02 at 18:45 +0200, Jussi Laako wrote: > On Sat, 2006-02-25 at 22:35 -0500, Dave Robillard wrote: > > Interesting fact: there is nothing good about GnomeCanvas. > > Nothing. > > For any free form rendering I use Cairo or OpenGL nowadays. Better > performance and you get antialiased lines etc practically for free. And > what's most important, you don't have to care about pixel coordinates or > resolutions anymore (esp. in OpenGL). For drawing, sure. The event handling (ie dragging objects around) is the hard part... -DR- From rlrevell at joe-job.com Sun Feb 26 22:38:11 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Sun Feb 26 22:38:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Karlsruhe Message-ID: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> So it looks like I may be at LAC2006. I was thinking of bringing my SO and spending a few days sightseeing after the conference, since we've never been to Germany. Any recommendations for interesting stuff to do in the area? We are into nature hikes, history, good restaurants - pretty boring actually ;-) Lee From loki.davison at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 01:30:11 2006 From: loki.davison at gmail.com (Loki Davison) Date: Mon Feb 27 01:30:18 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: On 2/27/06, Lee Revell wrote: > So it looks like I may be at LAC2006. I was thinking of bringing my SO > and spending a few days sightseeing after the conference, since we've > never been to Germany. Any recommendations for interesting stuff to do > in the area? We are into nature hikes, history, good restaurants - > pretty boring actually ;-) > > Lee www.bahn.de is probably the best getting around tip anyone can give you. The fairytail castle schloss neu schwanstein is about 5 hours train from there, it's a big tourist attraction and really does look pretty awesome from the outside. Lots of good hiking/bush walking (what the hell is this word in en_UK or en_US?) Every city in that area has city forests that are quite nice for a walk in. Signage is limited to non-existant though. The black forest is worth a good look, very pretty. Bikes are a great way to get round if you are into that kind of thing. Lake Constance (bodensee) is 4 hours train south of there and is a really wonderful lake to swim in, and walk around. For a real taste of germany try a doener kebab (and baklava). Dirt cheap and fantastically tasty, unlike all the other food in southern germany. For local dishes try Sp?tzle and Maultaschen. From rlrevell at joe-job.com Mon Feb 27 01:40:31 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Mon Feb 27 01:40:37 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <1141022431.14590.6.camel@mindpipe> On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 17:30 +1100, Loki Davison wrote: > On 2/27/06, Lee Revell wrote: > > So it looks like I may be at LAC2006. I was thinking of bringing my SO > > and spending a few days sightseeing after the conference, since we've > > never been to Germany. Any recommendations for interesting stuff to do > > in the area? We are into nature hikes, history, good restaurants - > > pretty boring actually ;-) > > > > Lee > > www.bahn.de is probably the best getting around tip anyone can give you. > > The fairytail castle schloss neu schwanstein is about 5 hours train > from there, it's a big tourist attraction and really does look pretty > awesome from the outside. Lots of good hiking/bush walking (what the > hell is this word in en_UK or en_US?) Hiking is what they call it in the US. > Every city in that area has city > forests that are quite nice for a walk in. Signage is limited to > non-existant though. The black forest is worth a good look, very > pretty. Bikes are a great way to get round if you are into that kind > of thing. Lake Constance (bodensee) is 4 hours train south of there > and is a really wonderful lake to swim in, and walk around. For a > real taste of germany try a doener kebab (and baklava). Dirt cheap and > fantastically tasty, unlike all the other food in southern germany. > For local dishes try Sp?tzle and Maultaschen. > Thanks! We are definitely looking forward to seeing the black forest and trying the beer. And no trip to Europe is complete without a nice train ride. Also, will anyone have a guitar I can borrow for the jam session (I'm assuming there will be one ;-), or should I try to bring my Strat? Lee From asbjs at stud.ntnu.no Mon Feb 27 09:02:28 2006 From: asbjs at stud.ntnu.no (=?iso-8859-1?B?QXNiavhybiBT5mL4?=) Date: Mon Feb 27 09:02:36 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack.udp and synchronisation In-Reply-To: <20060224182244.GA9884@mobilat> References: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> <20060224182244.GA9884@mobilat> Message-ID: <20060227140228.GA8106@stud.ntnu.no> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 07:22:44PM +0100, torbenh@gmx.de wrote: > [...] > http://netjack.sourceforge.net is there to fill this gap... Thanks! I read the README and had a look at the source, but I have not fully understood it. I am especially interested in how you keep the two parts synchronized. It is said that jack_net is a backend that "takes on the role of a sound card". Does this mean that this "virtual soundcard" will govern the clock frequency with which jack is running? And is this the means by which the two jacks is synchronised? (I.e., that the second jack is governed by the rate with which data arrives over the network?) There is also an alsa_client, which does some resampling, it seems. Is this used as part of the synchronisation? With kind regards Asbj?rn From asbjs at stud.ntnu.no Mon Feb 27 09:04:05 2006 From: asbjs at stud.ntnu.no (=?iso-8859-1?B?QXNiavhybiBT5mL4?=) Date: Mon Feb 27 09:04:15 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] jack.udp and synchronisation In-Reply-To: <20060224192212.GA4715@localdomain> References: <20060224151949.GA4570@stud.ntnu.no> <20060224192212.GA4715@localdomain> Message-ID: <20060227140405.GB8106@stud.ntnu.no> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 08:22:12PM +0100, stefan kersten wrote: > On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 04:19:49PM +0100, Asbj?rn S?b? wrote: > > (On a side note, it seems that Rohan Drape's web pages that are linked > > to from the jack pages, http://www.alphalink.com.au/~rd/sw/jack.html, > > have disappeared.) > > rohan moved to http://slavepianos.org/rd/ Thanks! Do you by the way have any experience with jack.udp, and can tell how it is synchronised? Asbj?rn From pieterp at joow.be Mon Feb 27 09:16:44 2006 From: pieterp at joow.be (Pieter Palmers) Date: Mon Feb 27 09:16:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Freebob-devices In-Reply-To: <200602181554.07125.ce@christeck.de> References: <200602162006.43276.ce@christeck.de> <200602181222.43075.ce@christeck.de> <43F72A92.7050008@joow.be> <200602181554.07125.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <440309CC.7090405@joow.be> Christoph Eckert wrote: >>At this point only JACK is supported, not ALSA. >> >> > >Not a true limitation, because I always use JACK. > >What about the MIDI ports: I guess I couldn't use it currently (not a >true limitation for me)? > > > Midi is currently supported through an ALSA sequencer 'client', i.e. the freebob device acts as an ALSA sequencer client providing access to all hardware MIDI ports. In the future I think the jackd backend will include native jack-midi support (once that is matured enough), while the upcoming ALSA driver will be either seq or rawmidi based. I would think that rawmidi would be the best solution, but I didn't look into it yet. Pieter From Dr.Graef at t-online.de Mon Feb 27 10:51:41 2006 From: Dr.Graef at t-online.de (Albert Graef) Date: Mon Feb 27 10:50:32 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Which widgets? In-Reply-To: <1140995777.11258.13.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> References: <20060225011403.GA8325@phlunky.Belkin> <1140868819.3641.25.camel@puppeli> <1140879378.3641.43.camel@puppeli> <20060225223330.GA1825@replic.net> <4400F3A9.20104@t-online.de> <1140924935.6687.19.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1140972333.11258.3.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> <4402039C.3080409@t-online.de> <1140995777.11258.13.camel@vaarlahti.uworld> Message-ID: <4403200D.9050608@t-online.de> Jussi Laako wrote: >>Canvases give you much more than just rendering. They also manage the >>graphical objects that you created and, if anything changes, rerendering >>the changed parts happens automatically. > > That's usually bad and undesirable for any real time graphics rendering, > like audio UIs often are. For example with proper interfaces I can now > get full screen scrolling spectrogram at 50-100 fps without huge CPU > load. I agree on that, I surely wouldn't want to draw waves or 3D visualizations using a canvas widget either. ;-) But computer music applications also need complex object views (scores, tracks, arrangements, etc.) which can be manipulated by the user (selections, drag and drop, etc.). Canvases are indispensable for that (well, you certainly don't have to use an existing canvas implementation, but then you probably end up doing your own). -- Dr. Albert Gr"af Dept. of Music-Informatics, University of Mainz, Germany Email: Dr.Graef@t-online.de, ag@muwiinfa.geschichte.uni-mainz.de WWW: http://www.musikinformatik.uni-mainz.de/ag From ce at christeck.de Mon Feb 27 13:24:13 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Mon Feb 27 13:24:25 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <200602271924.14247.ce@christeck.de> > So it looks like I may be at LAC2006. ?I was thinking of bringing my > SO and spending a few days sightseeing after the conference, since > we've never been to Germany. ?Any recommendations for interesting > stuff to do in the area? ?We are into nature hikes, history, good > restaurants - pretty boring actually ;-) some info for anyone who intends to spend some additional days in Germany/Baden W?rttemberg: * Some days after the LAC the Linuxtag opens (2006-05-03 through 2006-05-06). It's europes largest event about free software (about 15,000 visitors) with a really good programme (usually four slots at a time). It happens in Wiesbaden this year instead of Karlsruhe, so it's not "just round the corner" but just 2 hours by train * There's an interesting project in Halberstadt (east of germany) where a piece of John Cage gets performed for 639 (sic!) years. On 2006-05-05 the next tone change will happen, meet me there ;-) . If you go to Halberstadt, visit the Dome and some further churches as well. There are some other nice towns nearby like Quedlinburg or the Pfalz in Goslar. * Karlsruhe isn't an old town, so it cannot offer really old cathedrals and the like. But the castle and its park are worth a visit for sure. Try entering the tower of the castle (=entry for the museum) * Nearby you can visit a very old cathedral in Schwarzach * There are some old towns nearby worth a visit like Worms, Speyer, Freiburg and Strasbourg. The last one really is worth a visit, and you have even been to France/Alsace :) * There are even locations built by the romans (the river Rhein has been the border of the ?Imperium Romanum? for some time) * Grab the chance and visit the black forest, if you like even more than once. There are trains (~1h), or if you like rent a bike and have fun. There are also lots of hiking trails. If you need assistance, don't hesitate to drop me a line * If there are further things of interest in germany you'd like to see I'm willing to answer any questions * I recommend a good restaurant which offers a soup with Maultaschen as starter and a loin of venison with Sp?tzle, in the optimal case with plums as main course. It's usually known as ?Badischer Rehr?cken?. As dessert try ?Schwarzw?lder Kirschtorte?, a tart with cherries and cream Best regards ce Weblinks: http://www.linuxtag.org/2006/en/home/aktuelles.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_slow_as_possible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goslar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quedlinburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Karlsruhe_Germany_CastleByNight.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzwald http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/M?nster_Schwarzach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzwaelder_Kirschtorte From paul at linuxaudiosystems.com Mon Feb 27 14:01:00 2006 From: paul at linuxaudiosystems.com (Paul Davis) Date: Mon Feb 27 13:57:52 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: <200602271924.14247.ce@christeck.de> References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> <200602271924.14247.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <1141066860.1586.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, 2006-02-27 at 19:24 +0100, Christoph Eckert wrote: > * There are some old towns nearby worth a visit like Worms, Speyer, > Freiburg and Strasbourg. The last one really is worth a visit, and you > have even been to France/Alsace :) Ahem. Hiedelberg? The jewel of the Neckar ? Also, the Odenwald is not far away, for hilly hiking/cycling. --p (remembering his glory days as one of the odenwald's first mountain bikers back in 1986) From kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu Mon Feb 27 17:05:33 2006 From: kjetil at ccrma.stanford.edu (Kjetil S. Matheussen) Date: Mon Feb 27 17:05:57 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] Snd-ls V0.9.5.4 and Das_Watchdog V0.2.1 Message-ID: Download from http://ccrma.stanford.edu/~kjetil/src/ Snd-ls v0.9.5.4 ================ Contains -------- Snd v7.15 from 17.8.2005 About ----- Snd-ls is a distribution of the sound editor Snd. Its target is people that don't know scheme very well, and don't want to spend too much time configuring Snd. It can also serve as a quick introduction to Snd and how it can be set up. Changes 0.9.5.3 -> 0.9.5.4 -------------------------- -Changed default resampling quality to SRC_SINC_BEST_QUALITY -Added workaround for shift-handling across various keyboard settings. (shortcuts for zoom in and undo works with american keyboards now.) -Added check for Guile 1.8. Snd-ls crashes with guile 1.8. (all versions I have tried of 1.7 seems to work though...) -Use JackPortIsPhysical instead of "alsa_pcm" when finding jack ports. -Updated the rt stuff to latest versions. *************************************** *************************************** Das_Watchdog V0.2.1 =================== About ----- Das_Watchdog is a general watchdog for the linux operating system that should be runned in the background at all times to ensure a realtime process won't hang the machine. Changes 0.2.0->0.2.1 -------------------- *Cleaned up source a bit. *Properly find number of timer processes. *Added shortcuts for optargs. From ce at christeck.de Mon Feb 27 18:27:56 2006 From: ce at christeck.de (Christoph Eckert) Date: Mon Feb 27 18:28:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: <1141066860.1586.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> <200602271924.14247.ce@christeck.de> <1141066860.1586.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <200602280027.57275.ce@christeck.de> > > * There are some old towns nearby worth a visit like Worms, Speyer, > > Freiburg and Strasbourg. The last one really is worth a visit, and > > you have even been to France/Alsace :) > > Ahem. Hiedelberg? The jewel of the Neckar ? of course, it's not far, but I personally dislike it a bit because of the many students that crowd the city ;-) . > Also, the Odenwald is not far away, for hilly hiking/cycling. I have grown in the Odenwald, and I think there are much more interesting mountains/regions in germany like the Franconian Switzerland: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconian_Switzerland http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr??nkische_Schweiz Besides the many breweries, there are nice rocks (usually crowded by japanese freeclimbers ;-) , nice caves, villages, old churches, there's Bayreuth and Sanspareil: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanspareil so... > --p (remembering his glory days as one of the odenwald's first > mountain bikers back in 1986) ...maybe for your next bike trip :) ? Best regards ce From capocasa at gmx.net Tue Feb 28 06:16:05 2006 From: capocasa at gmx.net (Carlo Capocasa) Date: Tue Feb 28 06:20:22 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Re: Portable C++ MIDI libraries review In-Reply-To: <20060226134739.3bad46e9.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> References: <20060226134739.3bad46e9.krampenschiesser@freenet.de> Message-ID: > thx for this report. > I think I'll have a further look at rtmidi. Glad it was useful to you! >A triangle which has an angle of 135 degrees is called an obscene >triangle. LMAO!!!!!! By the way, isn't there any porn geared at intellectual people out there? From cuse at users.sourceforge.net Tue Feb 28 08:30:08 2006 From: cuse at users.sourceforge.net (Christian Schoenebeck) Date: Tue Feb 28 08:35:22 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Karlsruhe In-Reply-To: <200602280027.57275.ce@christeck.de> References: <1141011491.24141.267.camel@mindpipe> <1141066860.1586.9.camel@localhost.localdomain> <200602280027.57275.ce@christeck.de> Message-ID: <200602281430.09214.cuse@users.sourceforge.net> Am Dienstag, 28. Februar 2006 00:27 schrieb Christoph Eckert: > > Ahem. Hiedelberg? The jewel of the Neckar ? > > of course, it's not far, but I personally dislike it a bit because of > the many students that crowd the city ;-) . I guess that's one of the reasons why I love it! ;P No seriously, I definitely recommend you to visit Heidelberg! It's an old university city which unlike most other big(ger) cities in Germany wasn't devastated during WW2. I like the city, its ambience and enjoy it every time I can be there. CU Christian From rzewnickie at rfa.org Tue Feb 28 12:48:23 2006 From: rzewnickie at rfa.org (Eric Dantan Rzewnicki) Date: Tue Feb 28 12:48:34 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-user] Re: [linux-audio-dev] More about consolidation of the Linux audio online resources In-Reply-To: <87slq84wk7.fsf@esben-stien.name> References: <440294AC@zathras> <20060224012542.GH30365@rfa.org> <87slq84wk7.fsf@esben-stien.name> Message-ID: <20060228174822.GA31244@rfa.org> On Fri, Feb 24, 2006 at 04:15:52PM +0100, Esben Stien wrote: > Eric Dantan Rzewnicki writes: > > > resources and bandwidth for Linux Audio stuff > > Why not grab this excellent opportunity to call it gnu audio. Should > we have a different one for gnu/hurd audio when we start running > that?;). then we could have GLADs and GHADs. eghads -- Eric Dantan Rzewnicki | Linux Audio Developer and Sysadmin Technical Operations Division | Radio Free Asia 2025 M Street, NW | Washington, DC 20036 | 202-530-4900 CONFIDENTIAL COMMUNICATION This e-mail message is intended only for the use of the addressee and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. Any unauthorized dissemination, distribution, or copying is strictly prohibited. If you receive this transmission in error, please contact network@rfa.org. From julien at c-lab.de Tue Feb 28 15:48:13 2006 From: julien at c-lab.de (Julien Claassen) Date: Tue Feb 28 15:48:29 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] sverb 0.90 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Cedric! I think this will be perfectly nice for a start. But what about libsndfile? I'm not such a good programmer, but I think it makes handling those formats relatively easy. But this is just an idea to get it more comfortable. If it's not so easy and quick after all, just go ahead. Kindest regards Julien -------- Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From julien at c-lab.de Tue Feb 28 16:19:54 2006 From: julien at c-lab.de (Julien Claassen) Date: Tue Feb 28 16:20:35 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] [ANN] arcangel (and result of widget discussion) In-Reply-To: <20060226135333.GB8325@phlunky.Belkin> References: <20060226135333.GB8325@phlunky.Belkin> Message-ID: Hi James! Could you do a ladspa-plugin for it? Kindest regards Julien -------- Music was my first love and it will be my last (John Miles) ======== FIND MY WEB-PROJECT AT: ======== http://ltsb.sourceforge.net - the Linux TextBased Studio guide From jules at rawmaterialsoftware.com Tue Feb 28 16:49:04 2006 From: jules at rawmaterialsoftware.com (Julian Storer) Date: Tue Feb 28 16:49:21 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> Hi folks A while ago there was some talk on the newsgroup about my Juce library, and people were asking if/when I'd add support for audio under Linux.. well it's taken me a while to get round to it, but I finally battled through the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA, and the latest Juce release does finally make a noise under Linux! Some quick background info for those of you who won't be familiar with Juce - it's a cross-platform (Windows/Mac/Linux) GUI + everything else library, similar to Qt, wxWindows, etc, released under the GPL. Because of my background (I wrote Tracktion), there's a lot of audio stuff in there, and it's got cross-platform support for DirectSound, ASIO, CoreAudio.. and now ALSA. So anyway, if anyone's interested in having a go, that'd be great, as so far I've only been able to test it on my laptop's built-in soundcard! The Juce demo app has an audio page which monitors incoming audio, plays wavefiles and has a simple synthesizer. It lets you pick a soundcard, change its sample rate, etc. Hope this is of interest to people! More info here: http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce and downloads here: http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/download.php (Oh - and before anyone asks "does this mean Tracktion is going to come out on Linux soon", the answer is "I don't know"!) Cheers! Jules From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 28 17:02:34 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 28 17:02:40 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> References: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> Message-ID: <1141164155.5860.47.camel@mindpipe> On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 21:49 +0000, Julian Storer wrote: > the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA Please, stop repeating the myth that ALSA is undocumented. http://www.alsa-project.org/documentation.php http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/ http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/examples.html Lee From paul at linuxaudiosystems.com Tue Feb 28 17:30:40 2006 From: paul at linuxaudiosystems.com (Paul Davis) Date: Tue Feb 28 17:27:46 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> References: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> Message-ID: <1141165841.2432.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 21:49 +0000, Julian Storer wrote: > Hi folks > > A while ago there was some talk on the newsgroup about my Juce library, > and people were asking if/when I'd add support for audio under Linux.. > well it's taken me a while to get round to it, but I finally battled > through the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA, and the latest Juce > release does finally make a noise under Linux! why did you decide to add ALSA support rather than JACK (which is 200% simpler than ALSA, 150% closer to ASIO/CoreAudio's callback model and 200% more useful to 50% of users) ? or at least, why not portaudio? ;) --p From jules at rawmaterialsoftware.com Tue Feb 28 17:33:45 2006 From: jules at rawmaterialsoftware.com (Julian Storer) Date: Tue Feb 28 17:34:04 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <1141165841.2432.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> <1141165841.2432.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4404CFC9.6080006@rawmaterialsoftware.com> I could (and probably will) add Jack support later, but assumed that ALSA's the lowest-common-denominator sound API. Paul Davis wrote: >On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 21:49 +0000, Julian Storer wrote: > > >>Hi folks >> >>A while ago there was some talk on the newsgroup about my Juce library, >>and people were asking if/when I'd add support for audio under Linux.. >>well it's taken me a while to get round to it, but I finally battled >>through the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA, and the latest Juce >>release does finally make a noise under Linux! >> >> > >why did you decide to add ALSA support rather than JACK (which is 200% >simpler than ALSA, 150% closer to ASIO/CoreAudio's callback model and >200% more useful to 50% of users) ? or at least, why not portaudio? > >;) > >--p > > > > > > > From khremeviuc at yahoo.com Tue Feb 28 18:00:46 2006 From: khremeviuc at yahoo.com (Kevin Hremeviuc) Date: Tue Feb 28 18:00:50 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <1141164155.5860.47.camel@mindpipe> Message-ID: <20060228230046.38767.qmail@web60713.mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, I am sorry but the alsa documentation is poor. I always resort to looking at other peoples applications to see what they have done. A case in point is the alsa sequencer. It does have a nice page which explains just enough to get you going but the api is much larger than this and some of the function documentation is banal to say the least. The audio stuff is even worse! There is some conceptual documentation which seems very old and I am not sure whether it is up to date. For an open source project that is not used commercially the documentation is amongst the best that I have seen and we all know how difficult it is to find time to spend on this stuff. I have been trying for years but between work, study and actually trying to make some music I have ended up making no contribution (so who am I to talk!). sorry but that's my opinion, Kev --- Lee Revell wrote: > On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 21:49 +0000, Julian Storer > wrote: > > the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA > > Please, stop repeating the myth that ALSA is > undocumented. > > http://www.alsa-project.org/documentation.php > http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/ > http://www.alsa-project.org/alsa-doc/alsa-lib/examples.html > > Lee > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 28 18:31:07 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 28 18:31:14 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <4404CFC9.6080006@rawmaterialsoftware.com> References: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> <1141165841.2432.80.camel@localhost.localdomain> <4404CFC9.6080006@rawmaterialsoftware.com> Message-ID: <1141169468.5860.57.camel@mindpipe> On Tue, 2006-02-28 at 22:33 +0000, Julian Storer wrote: > I could (and probably will) add Jack support later, but assumed that > ALSA's the lowest-common-denominator sound API. ALSA is a good choice for a "consumer" app like a movie or CD player. For musician stuff, JACK has been the standard for a few years now. Lee From khremeviuc at yahoo.com Tue Feb 28 22:56:29 2006 From: khremeviuc at yahoo.com (Kevin Hremeviuc) Date: Tue Feb 28 22:56:34 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <4404C550.2070601@rawmaterialsoftware.com> Message-ID: <20060301035629.2144.qmail@web60712.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Julian, Just compiled juce and tried the demo programme. Got the error contained in the attached screen capture. I don't normally have any problems running alsa audio apps, however the fault may be in my alsa setup. Kev --- Julian Storer wrote: > Hi folks > > A while ago there was some talk on the newsgroup > about my Juce library, > and people were asking if/when I'd add support for > audio under Linux.. > well it's taken me a while to get round to it, but I > finally battled > through the hostile, undocumented jungle of ALSA, > and the latest Juce > release does finally make a noise under Linux! > > Some quick background info for those of you who > won't be familiar with > Juce - it's a cross-platform (Windows/Mac/Linux) GUI > + everything else > library, similar to Qt, wxWindows, etc, released > under the GPL. Because > of my background (I wrote Tracktion), there's a lot > of audio stuff in > there, and it's got cross-platform support for > DirectSound, ASIO, > CoreAudio.. and now ALSA. > > So anyway, if anyone's interested in having a go, > that'd be great, as so > far I've only been able to test it on my laptop's > built-in soundcard! > The Juce demo app has an audio page which monitors > incoming audio, plays > wavefiles and has a simple synthesizer. It lets you > pick a soundcard, > change its sample rate, etc. > > Hope this is of interest to people! More info here: > http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce > and downloads here: > http://www.rawmaterialsoftware.com/juce/download.php > > (Oh - and before anyone asks "does this mean > Tracktion is going to come > out on Linux soon", the answer is "I don't know"!) > > Cheers! > > Jules > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: juce_audio_problem.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 9414 bytes Desc: 3684685698-juce_audio_problem.jpg Url : http://music.columbia.edu/pipermail/linux-audio-dev/attachments/20060301/14c9d2b4/juce_audio_problem-0001.jpg From rlrevell at joe-job.com Tue Feb 28 23:13:53 2006 From: rlrevell at joe-job.com (Lee Revell) Date: Tue Feb 28 23:14:07 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] Juce now has ALSA support! In-Reply-To: <20060301035629.2144.qmail@web60712.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20060301035629.2144.qmail@web60712.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1141186434.5860.94.camel@mindpipe> On Wed, 2006-03-01 at 03:56 +0000, Kevin Hremeviuc wrote: > Hi Julian, > > Just compiled juce and tried the demo programme. Got > the error contained in the attached screen capture. I > don't normally have any problems running alsa audio > apps, however the fault may be in my alsa setup. > > Kev It appears that Juce is opening the "hw" PCM which only support S32_LE on your device. It should be opening the "default" PCM which will automagically convert whatever format Juce uses to S32_LE. Lee From park at tulane.edu Sun Feb 26 01:53:22 2006 From: park at tulane.edu (park) Date: Fri Mar 3 12:43:43 2006 Subject: [linux-audio-dev] ICMC 2006: Extended Deadlines Message-ID: <44015062.2070703@tulane.edu> Please pardon cross postings and feel free to distribute this announcement. ICMC 2006: Extended Deadlines Y'all are invited to submit your best, finest, or even craziest works to the 2006 International Computer Music Conference to be held in New Orleans, Louisiana, USA from November 6 - 11, 2006. To facilitate the submission of your works we have extended the deadlines: Music/Video/Installations: March 18 (Sat), 2006 Papers: March 11 (Sat), 2006 This conference is not only a historic collaboration between ICMA and SEAMUS (Society of Electro Acoustic Music in the US) but is also a conference that will help with the recovery of a city, its people, and its culture. We have also further updated performance resources which includes the Ensemble Surplus from Germany, NextEns from Cincinnati, Cat 5 from Mississipi, the infamous Convolution Brothers, dancers from the Tulane Theater and Dance Department, our own Tulane Music Department Musicians, Korean traditional instrumentalists from Seoul, and much more. During the conference we'll be giving away gifts and prizes (as well as lots of beads!) made possible by generous donations by our corporate sponsors such as Bias(numerous copies of Peak Pro XT), Parallax (10 BS2 boards with on board bread-boards), Mixmeister (more than $1000 worth of products), Maxim-IC (no not the magazine!), Electrotrap ($800 worth of sensors for your HCI needs), empreintes DIGITALes (special "ICMC" CD for all registered participants), Soundhack (5 copies of spectral shapers), fxpansion (one of each software type) and many more. Please visit www.icmc2006.org for details on updates and conference information. Laissez les bon temps roulez! Sincerely, Tae Hong Park, ICMC 2006 Conference Chair